The Indignity of Migration............

[Obugi]

All,

I came across this well written article on NigeriaWorld. It left me mystified.

nigeriaworld.com/feature/publication/odunlami/112303.html

I come across this attitude all the time and I find it disturbing. Is there something I am missing? Is it a sin to leave a country where a materially high standard of living is hard to obtain? What is it about us in the diaspora that bothers many upper class Nigerians? Even the ones here with us are contemptous of Nigerians abroad. Could it be that they just don't want Obugi to taste even a little of what they enjoy in Nigeria?

Quote:

They flash their dollars, which fetch a lot on the black market, forget the back breaking work used to procure it, and go on spending sprees.

Unquote.

Hmmmmmm. I am going home this xmas (of course after I get my broken back straightened by a chiropractor:lol ) I hope some Big (Wo)man doesn't put sand in my garri O. Na flashing dollar I wan carry gagbaru Ngozi, Bunmi and Fatima O! Dis bad belle get as e be. :eek

Obugi.

[MrOneNaija]

IGNORANCE AS NATIONALISM?

Obugi,

On the face of it, the conclusion of that article would suggest that the writer is imbued with a keen sense of nationalist concern for the country's development. But even that apparently "progressive" sounding conclusion speaks volumes as to where the writer is coming from. In the immature supplication of the conclusion is embedded a now tiresome discourse, namely, that the Obasanjo regime is doing great, thanks to the epileptic but criminally expensive cell.phone system and the discredited privatization scheme. But beyond this puerile rehash of egregious pro-regime propaganda, one is confronted with some of the most bizarre assumptions regarding Nigerian emigration and expatriate living in general.

There is no serious intellectual effort on the part of the writer to tell us how the socio-economic behaviour of expatriate Nigerians differs substantially from that of other groups in their adopted countries. There is also the profoundly false assumption that expatriate Nigerians necessarily want to go back to Nigeria, to the extent that the writer completely ignores the fact that in America or Britain, a substantial demographic mass which may or may not lay claim to Nigeria as the land of its ancestors has been integrated in these Western democracies and knows no other country. The writer should be reminded that amongst even the very recent immigrants from Nigeria, most are doing fine- professionally and economically irrespective of the usual adversity new immigrants are faced with. To view Nigerians in the Diaspora from the anecdotal perception of illegal immigrants and owambe-loving individuals is the height of caricatural bias and stupidity. By the way, who loves owambe more than the kleptocratic Obasanjo regime which the writer would have us believe is performing wonders with the Nigerian economy? So, Obugi, don't ever feel any sense of guilt and enjoy your hard-earned dollars while in Naija. I just hope the writer is not ranting as a dump victim of one of the persons she seems to loathe so much. Today in Nigeria, a large segment of the youths and the adult population - starting with Mr. President - wants to ape America and the West. If the writer has trouble with that kind of mindset, it is at that local level she should focus her attention and not on the perceived mimicry of emigrate youngsters who may have a much more legitimate explanation for their behavioural patterns. :rollin :rollin :rollin

[Orems1]

Iread the article it was thought provoking but i disagree with it on various premises. People emigrate for various reasons political,economic,Educational etc.If the situation in your home Country is fairly Ok in terms of these conditions and also there is a low crime rate there is a reduced chance of people emigrating.In the 60's,70's Nigerians were indeed eager to go back home. Now i do not advise anybody to go and settle in Nigeria unless you have a business or source of income to sustain your self and family. People say things are getting better i am tired of hearing this statement. Reason is that i only hear about this from people who have some Government connection. I personally have no intention of relocating to Nigeria now.I however visit.
Another issue is the call for foreign investment.Apart from Oil the second largest foreign exchange earner for the Country is the 100, 200 dollars sent by thousands of Nigerians worldwide.This is also true for Mexico which is why before 911 there was a lot of talk by Vincente Fox about organising a guest Worker program. The interesting thing is that a lot of Nigerian government officials recognize this. Also emigration removes several of us from the competition for non existent jobs in the Country. True there are business opportunities but you do not need to be physically present to reap rewards.
What the writer should do instead of writing about the Prodigal son she should also tell us about the parable of the talents in the Bible and talk of wise rulers like King David and Solomon.
What the Nigerian government should do is to encourage Nigerians abroad to visit periodically those in academia give lectures,those in the Professions such as Medicine,Law,Journalism etc can give seminars and have an intellectual exchange with people on the ground.That is what China,Taiwan,India and Pakistan do instead of deriding their Nationals who are abroad.We should not criticize people for what job they do to survuve. So far they do nothing criminal it is their business.
I like other Nigerians abroad are contributing our quota by writing on fora such as this,our town meetings and sending money to our relatives.We all love Nigeria whether we live in Nigeria or not.

[Uncle Sam]

if the originator of that write-up is not married and if ILN is not married too, this will be a match made in heaven.

[Meticulous]

Obugi, that's one interesting article...

Actually, I agree with some of what the writer said and disagree with some generalizations. The writer paints an exaggerated rosy picture of Nigeria, which I disagree with; however, I do agree that more than a few Nigerians in the Diaspora, rush to "sex up" their situations/achievements in the Diaspora.

I have met quite a few professional Nigerians, whose attitudes are no better the looters they write about. Some believe that just because one has a decent job, one can get financially irresponsible and get into fraud, i.e. get all the credit one can get, max them, defraud the credit card companies out in order to go to Nigeria and "impress".

Obugi, have you attended any Nigerian sponsored October 1st celebrations? If you haven't, you should. Just go as an observer, you will definitely be shocked at the behavior many display. Especially the ones you would call "professionals"...!

I am not sure if you read about the Nigerian student in Harvard, that was involved in printing fake currency?

Anyway, not long ago I read this article, in the "Social Contract" journal about Nigerians in America. It was very revealing. I will try to find the link for it.

This article cited that about 80-90% of Nigerian immigrants being involved in one form of fraud or another. It talked about fake companies Nigerians set up and use them to provide themselves with references for credit card fraud, check fraud etc.

The article expanded on all the major fraud that a large number of Nigerians (many are US citizens) in the Diaspora are involved in. It also talked about how Nigerians had massively defrauded many social programs and outwitted the systems.

The article said that in the 1980s Nigerians got more student loans than any other immigrant group (mostly through fraudulent means). It talked about food stamp fraud Nigerians engage in, subsidized housing fraud, insurance fraud, etc.

Nigerians in America, are certainly building notoriety for themselves...

Obviously, some Nigerians in the Diaspora are doing well and are keeping on the straight and narrow.

However, many are "struggling" and they do seem to be desperate to "impress" their Nigerian compatriots (through hook or crrok) that they are "living large in the USA"...

Obugi, if this is what you call doing well, then I think the phrase "doing well" needs to be redefined.

[Obugi]

Meti,

I would sure like to read that link if you can find it. I do have an idea of what they are trying to point out...but they also need to write how America was stolen from the Red Indians, Australia was stolen from the Aborigenes, and Africa looted through colonization. Better me stealing from you than you stealing from me. I am not at all interested in trying to prove my moral worth to America, Britain or anybody else. I just want their money anyhow I can get it.

I am very well versed :lol on the general subject of crime among first generation immigrants in the USA, whether Russian, Colombian, Italian or Irish and Asian, but especially Nigerian :lol Nigerian crime is nickles and dimes in comparison to other ethnic crime. The stigmatization of Nigerians as criminals is a part outgrowth of racism, Americans can't stand it that they are being outwitted by Africans from the jungle who can't read and write.:lol

Read up on President JFK's father if you wish, or the President of the University of Massachussets, or the Durst family in New York. Or if its white collar fraud, how many Nigerians have done anything on the scale of Enron or the S&L Bank frauds in the late 80's? I am evil because I defrauded a few banks and insurance companies? Make I hear word jare!!!!! I am proud of Nigerian crime. I just want the money, to hell with the police, God, and the press. I have no problems with "stealing" from White people, it is all part of competition. As long as the "criminal" is doing well by his family, Obugi is alright. A credit fraudster in the USA who uses his money to build houses in Port Harcourt is better than Nigerian politicians who steal from Nigeria and stash their loot in New York. Enough said.

Yes, I have attended Oct 1st celebrations in the USA. What exactly are you driving at? Abeg make you expantiate and kowashiate, as Zebrudaya would say. :rollin

As for diasporans giving an impression of living large in the USA compared to Nigeria, well by MY experience and socioeconomic class in Nigeria, I am living large in the USA !!! Most people of my socio economic class in Nigeria don't live half as well as I do and if I was in Nigeria I don't think I would have the same material standard of living......car, home and cell phone, advanced health care, apartment with 24hr electricity and piped water, wall to wall carpeting, etc. This is fact.

Mmmmmmmm. I'm still a little puzzled. Nigerians in diaspora must really be causing people sleepless nights with that $2.1billion per year they send home, which happens to be the second largest source of foreign exchange earnings in Nigeria apart from crude oil exports. What I sense in that article is envy, pure and simple. Nothing wrong with envy, it can spur people to do what they should always do.............GET YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obugi.

[AfricaWest1]

Obugi

You can mention ENRON again...When the world becomes fully aware of the unprecedented corrupt accounting practices of ENRON with the help of politicians, more understanding will follow and questions would be asked.

Now, Nigerians are a very corrupt people, I agree. However, question: is the world ready to shatter the structure which poduces corrupt Nigerians year in, year out? Answer: I think not. When the world is ready, I will join its battle-ready army and shatter the Nigerian state into a million pieces! That way the structure that breeds corruption in Africa and spreads such to the world will be corrected.

Turning to the issue of Nigerans in the Diaspora, whatever pain, loss or suffering they might go through by reason of their journeys, seems bearable when compared to what the cursed Nigerian state has to offer and that says it all.

People have brains and if despite pain suffered in the Diaspora Nigerians choose to remain, what should I say, "the thing speaks for itself!"

Take a trip to any Western Embassy in Nigeria, Nigerians vote with their feet every day!

[Orems1]

Meti while one does not have the link from which you got your post from . I have a few things to say their premise that 80% of Nigerians are engaged in fraud is wrong and has no basis.There are over 3 million Nigerians or Blacks of Nigerian ancestry in the US.That means that over 2.5 Million are engaged in fraud and there should be special jails built for Nigerians alone. We should not engage in over generalisation. They need to provide data of Inmates in states over the Country,Police arrests and FBI Surveillance etc be fore they arrive at such data. By extension most Nigerians including those of us on this board should have a friend or relative in jail.

While there is no doubt that a lot of Nigerians are in jail for fraud and other crimes the number is not out of proportion with the Nigerian population in the US.

[Picasso]

Thank you, Orems.

Very well said!

[Obugi]

All,

I am surprised by the disregard of reality that surfaces in some of the denounciations of the so called "empty life" of Nigerian diasporans.

Like AW wrote:

People have brains and if despite pain suffered in the Diaspora Nigerians choose to remain, what should I say, "the thing speaks for itself!"

Unquote.

In fact, I know many Nigerians, some of them my relatives, who went back to Nigeria in the 70's and ended up regretting it. Some turned around to return to the USA. It is partly the learned wisdom of that experience that dissuades many Nigerians from going home permanently, though I think the lesson has been taken too far. Personally I think that high income earners in the West have many opportunities to invest and make good money in Nigeria these days...........

Another point, one guy told me that it is the remittances from diasporans that keeps Nigerians docile and passive. According to him, if all Nigerians were to return to Nigeria today the resulting economic hardship would spark a revolution.:lol

My hometown is a good example of how much remittances can do. At one of our national conventions I counted 350 adults in attendance. There is hardly any extended family that doesn't have 2 or 3 ppl abroad. We have built or refurbished hospitals, schools, provided security, and many of the new homes are built by diasporans. The price of land has at least doubled in dollar terms in my hometown. Our relatives live very well thanks to us. When we return home for Xmas the price of fresh fish and other things in the local market skyrocket, providing extra income to local traders. So why the bad belle? I don't understand.

Orems,

It isn't just that we are not as much into "crime" as some claim, my contention is we are no different from any other nationality or ethinic group.

Obugi.

[Obugi]

All,

Here is another article by the same author that sheds some light on her views on migration. Enjoy.........

nigeriaworld.com/articles/2003/oct/150.html

Interesting, huh? Things have changed a lot, so I kinda of see with her. Its not easy settling into the USA these days. I remember back when all you needed was to show up at a Social Security Office with a passport and you got your Soc Sec Number in 3 weeks............ :\

What she needs to do is play the Visa Lottery.......

Obugi.

[Meticulous]

I found the link I refered to, after quite some searching...The Nigerian Crime Network

And by the way, there are studies carried out by some government departments on Nigerian Americans and fraud. I will try to get those links also.

Obugi, there is a very interesting theory about the reason behind the massive immigration levels and the promotion of chaos in many "developing" countries to lead people to immigrate out of their countries.

Study the low birth rates, the shaky pension system, and the economic trends in the US and you just might have the answer...

By the way, I am not an immigrant, so perhaps that makes me see this issue differently from you.

From what you wrote up there, I'd say one's background in Nigeria probably correlates strongly with one's level of "excitement" with America.

I know Nigerians in Nigeria who are Americans by birth, but they would never ever leave Nigeria because they are doing quite well there.

So, perhaps the opinions expressed are a question of how much of a difference one's life is now, in comparison to what it was or would have been in Nigeria.

Perhaps the writer of the article is "living large" in Nigeria, and in her view, she might have to work twice as hard to reach the level she is at in Nigeria.

But then again, she might just be "pissed" that she couldn't get a green card....

[Orems1]

I read the article by Ms Odunlami posted by Obugi and my heart really goes out to her now i understand where she is coming from.The truth of the matter is she saw the underside of immigrant life in America.This reminds me of Ike Oguine's excellent book Squater's tale about the life of an immigrant. I however do not agree with her sweeping statements and at times bilous disdain for Nigerians in the US.I however wish her luck in her career as a writer and will be on the look out for her book.


Meti i will read the link you posted.

[Orems1]

Meti the center for immigration studies is one of those think tanks in the US that have links to one party or the other. Some are pro and some anti immigration.The CIS strikes me as being anti immigration while veiling itself as being pro immigrant. It is just like people who do not want affirmative action quoting Martin Luther king instead of stating why they do not want affirmative action.

www.cis.org/topics/current numbers.html

[Orems1]

www.cis.org

[Meticulous]

Orems, I agree, most of those organizations are anti-immigration...though they might try to "show" they are pro-immigration.

However, if you study the economic trends and population trends of most developing countries, you will find that they simply will not thrive in the next 2 decades without massive immigration.

The "baby boomer" population is aging and will slowing start dying off and putting a lot of pressure on the social system. The population increases in many developing countries is mainly coming from immigration.

Now, since most developing countries are built on social institutions which thrive on tax payer dollars, without a substitute for the huge "baby boomer" population as they leave the work place, guess what happens?

Developing countries actually benefit a lot more from immigration than they would care to admit. For example, Obugi is enthusiastic about having "wall-to wall" carpets, etc...

However, many immigrants, like Obugi, do not realize that they actually stimulate the economies they are in by driving up housing demands, service demands, etc. Further, they are usually give sub-standard housing built with cheap material, however; most immigrants would gladly accept and "jump for joy" over this because they consistently compare their current abode with that in their origin countries.

Read what Obugi considers as "living large"....

...car, home and cell phone, advanced health care, apartment with 24hr electricity and piped water, wall to wall carpeting, etc. This is fact.

That statement is actually, really really sad to read.

To the issue of fraud...

Many do not see bilking the social system as fraud; they think it is being "smart" or "wise". We engage in so much systematic fraud, however, we do not consider it to be fraud; we call it being "smart". That is simply amazing.

And this attitude shows why corruption thrives in Nigeria.

Orems, I will give you some stats...

Approximately 25% of the prisoners in US federal penitentiaries are immigrants. 35 - 40% percent of the heroin that comes into the US is smuggled in by Nigerians.

I am not sure about the levels in UK. However, from what I read, the stats might be worse.

There are documented cases of of Nigerians who attemped finance trips to the US by agreeing to be cocaine mules. Many of these people have ended up in jails in the US.

I saw a documentary about Nigerian women in penitentiaries who had been used as mules, just to come to the US? It was truly sad. I am not sure why so many are so desperate and subject themselves to such.

Can you believe that in São Paulo Nigerians are the biggest group of foreigners imprisoned?

Even in Italy, we have a high representation in their prisons.

Nigerians seem to be under so much pressure due to the "expectations" and fierce competition around Nigerians. It is almost as though they see leaving Nigeria as a solution to all their problems.

Obugi, about the Oct 1st thing. Well, I have gone to an October 1st celebration where some guys were obviously driving luxurious rented cars and openly lied that they had just bought the car. Why? For what?

Do you remember the story of Odighizuwa? The story of the Nigerian who stormed into his law school and shot 3 people in Grundy?

Articles like the one cited by Obugi, are good because they aid in lowering the expectations many Nigerians have about the US. That, in my view, is a good thing.

Fact is, many Nigerian immigrants have fast become the posters many anti-immigranti groups seek...

[AfricaWest1]

Meti

You can't argue for and against Nigeria at the same time. I have witnessed your tendency of seeing "Biafra" in any strong criticism against the Nigerian state. And when one suggests a better life exists outside Nigeria and compares the two, you come down on the person like a ton of bricks.

The "wall to wall carpet" statement is in order. What does the Nigerian state have to offer? I will help you:
despair, emptiness, hopelessness, frustration, squalor, ignorance, disease, unemployment, dishonesty and a twisted mentality. The place has turned into one big mad-house.

I can hear you say: AW, you are not serious. Well I am, take a look at the churches, hospitals and government parastatals, then define "madness" and tell me if Nigeria doesn't fit.

Therefore, as painful as it might seem, I quite agree with Obugi. Within the tim we have, I remain committed to the idea of a wholesale renegotiation of Nigeria. Let's find our bearings again, let's find where representative-ness, accountability and responsive-ness should lie in sociey and governance.

As we prepare for the West African Union, I hope the other West African states are watchful to avoid the Nigeria-virus. As West African states (including Nigeria) realise that the old notion of sovereignty was always a FALASY, I hope that once national currencies cease to exist, the dull and uninspiring flags will follow, then the other oppresive state structures and symbols.

At the centre of the new West African state should be a parliament directly elected (on the basis of proportional representation) from common cultural, historical and linguistic ethnic groupings. At the moment, Nigeria supports and implements an electoral college system for the WA parliament (drawn from the existing questionable National Assembly). A system that ensures direct participation of Nigerians and other West Africans) is denied. It is interesting to see where the corrupt and clueless Nigerian leadership is heading with its approach.

I am sure after monetary union, a host of issues that have not being adequately addressed will come to the fore. One thing is certain, Naira as a "store of value" lost significance long time ago, and it is about time we realise that the Nigerian state has lost its real significance for perhaps too many. Therefore, with well place reservations, I have to say: Welcome West African Union (?), bye-bye Nigeria...

[Orems1]

Meti looking at your last post i think you meant developed instead of developing world. Because Countries in Europe particularly now have what you are talking about in terms of shrinking fertility rate. A lot of factors have been attributed to this and various countries are adopting various solutions such as improving day care facilities and paying families to have more children. The current edition of the Economist uses Italy and Germany as case models.

Meti while i will not answer for Obugi the truth is that the difference in life style between the average American and African is startling. What is regarded as basic here hardly exists in most African Countries. What we had in the 70's and 80's we no more have as per facilities. I can talk from my Educational experience when i entered the University in 1983 and compare it to what i saw in my last trip in 2001. Because of the devaluation of our currency for sundry reasons the Naira which used to be at par with the dollar is now 120 to 1 dollar. Since we have not been able to produce an indigenous book publishing and chemical manufacturing base students now rely on photocopies of books 20 years old and handouts which do not encourage independent thinking.Also because of the devaluation of the currency lecturers can not afford to go abroad for conferences then get out of date and subsequently strike to improve their resources this leads to other strikes.Now with the internet there is better interaction between Nigerian academics and the outside World . With the fall in Education graduates who are interested in postgraduate studies or merely survival then travel out and seldom come back. Until these issues are addressed Nigeria will continue exporting her citizens. Some will become criminals but most will thrive where they settle. How to improve the educational and health care systems which are my areas of expertise are things i am currently engaged in because someone will ask me what i am doing.

[Meticulous]

AW, please don't over simplify my arguments here...

I am not arguing for and against Nigeria. I am arguing for some balance. One's experience in Nigeria, will directly reflect their opinion on immigration.

Like I said, I know quite a few people who will only visit outside Nigeria, but never leave Nigeria. These people are doing quite well there, and feel they would be treated like second class citizens if they leave. The concept that all Nigerians want to leave Nigeria is highly flawed.

Hence, if you feel you'll be treated like a second class citizen in your own country, then you wouldn't really have any qualms about leaving Nigeria in a heartbeat. That was my point. Some feel they will have some self fulfillment through what they achieve in their native country.

By the way, not all Nigerians who make it to the US succeed. There are a lot of sad and horrific stories. Obugi's opinion is just that, his opinion.

I have my measurement of what I'd say is having "done well" in life, Obugi's measurements and perhaps yours also, and mine are quite different.

I don't think I come down on pro-Biafrans like a ton of bricks AW. I guess I just haven't seen how division will solve our problems.

If a pro-Biafran can explain why a divided Nigeria will be better than the entity we call Nigeria today, perhaps that might help clarify my confusion at the Biafra proponents.

You say:

Let's find our bearings again, let's find where representative-ness, accountability and responsive-ness should lie in society and governance.

This sounds really nice AW, but how do we achieve this? How will we all sit on a table to negotiate when some perceive that they been seriously shortchanged.

Your call for a new West African Union sounds like a propagation of what we have seen in the past. A quick and dirty band-aid fix that just catalyzes the setting in of gangrene.

-----------------------

Orems, I agree with all you said about Education.

Coincidentally, this weekend, I went to the book store and ran into the new edition of "The Guinness Book of Records" (2004 Ed.). I quickly skimmed through the pages, and I just by chance happened to stop on a page that said, Somalia and Nigeria spent the least on education in comparison with all the other countries in the world!

Somalia spent the least, followed by Nigeria. I was totally shocked! Somalia is a country just emerging from war, stricken with poverty and the amount we spend on education is comparable to that of Somalia. That was totally shocking to read!

However, my belief is that Nigerians and Africans as a whole are getting a raw deal.

I believe the standard of living Obugi referred to, should be easily attainable in Nigeria.

While I agree that many leave Nigeria for political reasons, etc. I also believe that the lure of money is a great motivating factor for people who leave Nigeria.

Many Nigerians have grown up believing that the solution to all problems in Nigeria is to leave Nigeria, then come back with tons of $$. However, when they get here they find that is not always the case, and then they get desperate.

I can not count how many times I have gone to Nigeria and people I don't even know expect me to just hand them out money for doing absolutely nothing. The concept is just unbelievable.

My point is, some Nigerians in the Diaspora should curb their flair for exaggerating/sexing up their achievements.

The concept that leaving Nigeria is a panacea, fuels the long queues for Visa, etc in foreign embassies in Nigeria. Many no longer have the drive to change things in Nigeria, since they all have their hearts set on leaving Nigeria to get the "almighty dollar/pound".

While I agree that Nigeria is in dire straits, I also realize that leaving Nigeria is not always a panacea and money does not grow on trees in the US or anywhere else.

Some can easily adjust to immigration; however, some never do and some end up with mental problems ranging from schizophrenia to manic depression.

[Picasso]

The concept that leaving Nigeria is a panacea, fuels the long queues for Visa, etc in foreign embassies in Nigeria.

Excellent statement, Meticulous!

[Obugi]

Meti,

My idea of living large is very accurate. You may not be able to relate since you apparently have not lived without such amenities. Like you said, it depends on where you are coming from in Nigeria. In Nigeria I was among the 95% of the population who did not have the basic amenities I listed. What is "sad" about pointing out reality? For example, what % of 30yr olds in Nigeria own cars?

Here are some salaries earned by graduates in Port Harcourt:

High school principals..........$400/mo
New graduate optometrist.........$300/mo
Elementary School teacher........$150/mo
New pharmacy graduate............$250/mo

I know one pharmacy graduate that won the visa lottery and arrived the USA just 6mos ago; he gave me the pharmacy figures. After he takes his exams and starts working here he will be clocking $5000/mo AFTER TAXES. So he should have stayed in Nigeria? Right now he is a security guard; if his life was so hellish he would be on the 1st plane back to Port Harcourt. Heck, if my life would be better in Nigeria I would stay there when I visit this Xmas!

People are not stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!! More later.

Obugi.

[Obugi]

Meti,

Do you really believe this? Are we talking about Nigeria?

I believe the standard of living Obugi referred to,
should be easily attainable in Nigeria.

Unquote.

Well, its not.

What % of the adult population do you think have access to the things I listed? 10%, 20%? What % of Nigerian immigrants to the USA have them?

On the whole pension crisis thing, I hear you. You have to agree though that if the USA was a worse place to live than Nigeria for most people, nobody would play the visa lottery. I mean, if Liberia or Sierra Leone instituted a Visa lottery, how many Nigerians would apply?

Obugi.

[NextLevel]

Meticulous sounds like someone who:

1) hardly lived in Nigeria.
2) if she did live in Nigeria, never had friends who were much less privileged than she was.

One of my friends, who wasn't at the bottom of the ladder by the way, used to live with his family in a Festac flat. His mother is now having some medical problems and his father's business can no longer support itself. He left Nigeria in 1997 and came here to study, against all odds. Right now, he is has a lifestyle that allows to have fun and still send home money to help his family, who would be in far more serious trouble without him. Now, he is bringing over his siblings who will earn money to alleviate the struggles of those back home. Can you explain to me how you would expect him to take care of his family in your world which tries to "balance" the pros and cons of emigrating from Nigeria?

I know another man who comes from a big name family in one of the Yoruba states. He left Nigeria because he had a green card and started out working jobs while trying to get his citizenship, so he could bring his wife, then his kids over. During that time, he had his house, to which he had a title, taken from him in Nigeria because of a court case where the judge was bribed. Now, he lives with his wife and 2 kids in America, and they each earn upwards of 50K per year. They also live in a district with good public schools, so they don't need to bear the expense of private schools. Yes, the man has a name in Nigeria, but obviously, food and his family are more important to him.

Yes, there are other experiences. One of my ex-schoolmates got jailed and deported because he was engaging in credit card fraud. I know people who get into America and never get far. But very few of them would complain that they were far better off in Nigeria.

Most of the people who I know who romanticize Nigeria and want to go back are women, though there are a few men. All relish that life in Nigeria where they can be treated like big men (tells you something about the status of their parents). They also want to get married.

On the flipside, there is a girl whose very affluent family wants her to come home and get married. She wants to find software job her and some independence before going back.

Most of the people who were far better off in Nigeria are people you would find in England, where the opportunities for transforming one's status are not as common.

The main avenue for making money in Nigeria is *business*. If you are a good businessman, and you are highly sociable and social, then go for it. However, if you are an academic, an engineer, a doctor etc., your skills are far better valued in developing countries.

Yes, there are pros and cons to leaving or staying in Nigeria, just like anything else. But anyone who thinks the cons of leaving can *balance* or *cancel* out the pros needs a serious education in how Nigerians actually live back home. For me, I would go back home if they did just ONE thing - have a 24-7-365 electric power system. The rest, I can live with. But not having the power to run my AC and computer and charge my cellphone would drive me insane.

[Meticulous]

Obugi, you said:

Heck, if my life would be better in Nigeria I would stay there when I visit this Xmas!

...that's exactly my point...

Your opinion on immigration is framed on how your life was or would have been in Nigeria.

Further, my point about the lifestyle you described was this...

You description of "living large" is sad, because that should be attainable in Nigeria. One shouldn't have to swallow cocaine and become a "mule" or cross the dessert to reach that status. Hence, my point that it is sad.

I know the realities in and out of Nigeria. I am also leaving for Nigeria in a few days and I know what realities to expect.

One can pull out examples from both ends of the spectrum. I know people who have lived here and gone back to do better than they ever did here. And I also know people who have done better here.

I know people who live from "hand to mouth" here and some who are running from state to state with no hope. I know some who can't even leave because they are too embarrassed to, so give me a break!

NL, your example about the man with 50K per year is such an anticlimax. I'm like...so?

Then you get into your chauvinistic chime:

Most of the people who I know who romanticize Nigeria and want to go back are women..

...give me a break NL....!

My point is, one should not assume that leaving Nigeria is an instant solution and an instant ticket to wealth.

[NextLevel]

Meticulous,

Do you disagree that women who want to get married are more likely to want to go back to Nigeria than men, who often do not place as much of a premium on marriage? Do you also disagree that women are more likely to find it suitable to live with the parents, as many of these women do upon returning home, than men?

It's not hard to learn about people, Meticulous - just speak to them, know them and read about statistical trends - stop imagining things about them. Obugi is describing what the majority of people experience, but in your attempt to be a good contrarian, you are advancing arguments skewed to make a minority position more credible than it is.

In fact, when the Odunlami woman was describing a guy who refused to go to university in Nigeria, I laughed, because the guy I was talking about who left Nigeria and is supporting his family from her left in UNILAG year 3. I have friends who did medical school in Nigeria who come from affluent families (their mothers have been mistresses to men in high places) who still come to America because they can do better here.

We don't have to be unreasonable to defend positions with some merit - let's just remember that some merity doesn't always mean balance. As Obugi has said, people are voting with their feet - obviously, that means less to you than the way your writing appeals to you.

[Obugi]

Meti,

This is what I know about migration from Nigeria......

If you earn enough in Nigeria to attain the living standard I described (in Nigeria), then you can live comfortably either in Nigeria or USA. The % of Nigerians in Nigerians in Nigeria who can do it are no more than 5% of the population there.

If you are among the 95% of Nigerians who can't attain that standard of living, you stand a better chance of attaining it in the USA.

Or put it another way, Nigerians in the diaspora are on average far richer and live better than the average Nigerian in Nigeria.

That is why we all live here............and not there.

Obugi.

[Meticulous]

Obugi, thnx for expanding...

I really do understand your view on the issue.

I guess we just see this a little differently, and that's ok...

Cheers...

[Ednut]

Once while returning from a training course in Holland, my colleagues and I encountered a young woman about to be deported at Schipol Airport. She was screaming at the top of her lungs with her shirt off and her breasts bared save for a discolored bra. The security men were really rough handling her yet she kept shouting that they could not deport her to Nigeria because she was not from there. Meanwhile her Ibo accent was so thick it was all I could do to refrain from saying, "Come now, sister. Home is not that bad.'

The above quoted part of that poor woman's essay was the most insulting. After writing her stupid little article, for her to reach the conclusion that a lady described above was "Ibo" was an attempt for her to rubbish the Igbos. I do not understand why Mr. Odili will let such trash to be published in his webpage but will pull plugs on whosoever writes negative things about his maternal lineage.

[Meticulous]

Ednut, in my view, the writer was attempting to draw an allusion between her accent and her claim that she was not Nigerian, i.e. "she kept shouting that they could not deport her to Nigeria because she was not from there"...

This doesn't seem like an attempt to "rubbish the Igbos".

By the way, notice you quoted where the writer calls her a "sister"...

This seems like a totally innocent reference, being blown out of proportion.

I wonder when Nigerians, (even in online exchanges) will drop this unneccersary clinging to tribes...!

[Picasso]

Meticulous:

Thank you! Infact, you beat me to it.



Ednut:

Please crawl back to your biafranigeriaworld.com messageboard and continue your anti-Nigeria/pro-Igbo hate-fest there.

I just wonder how you guys are able to sleep with so much bile, hatred and phobia within you!

Infact, I am surprised you are still posting on this board. If I remembered correctly, your very first post on this board was to predict its doom. And here we are, still standing and waxing stronger by the day.

[Ednut]

Meticulous,

The only group (I hate the term TRIBE) that have a pronounced accent in Nigeria are the Yorubas especially there universal inability to pronounce "H" i.e. house becomes ouse, has becomes ass, etc. The Igbos, the Aniomas, Ogonis, Igalas, Tivs, etc sound alike. In fact most West Africans sound alike but for the Yoruba and some parts of Ghana so the Lady may not even be a Nigeria as she stated. I don't think that it was innocent on her part to include that and the fact that she used that word 'sister' as an emphasis, proves that. Yes she used it to try to soften the impact of her insult but she didn't fool anybody.

[Ajibs]

Obugi,
I am joining the debate late, I have not been able to read responses, but I did read the article by Tolu Odunlami. Let me seeif I can quickly make a contribution via some bulleted points as to why many of us left that country:

1. No matter how poor in America or abroad, when you go to a hospital sick, you get treated, you go to an emergency ward, you get treated as soon as possible:

I was once woken up by my neighbor at 1 am in the morning, the 2 year old son had 101 degree fever, we lived in Ikeja, I jumped in my car and drove here to EKO hospital on Mobolaji Bank Anthony, they asked for N25,000 (1996) Cash to even peek at the boy...even after she said she has the money but not on her person...We had to drive all the way to Victoria Island to get him to his regular hospital, at 3 am in Lagos, I hope you understand what that means...

2. When I get home in Baltimore, I flip the switch, I see light, I turn on the tap, water gushes out, I pick up my phone, there is dial tone, Oh by th way when I wanted to get the phone, I called, we will be there on so so and so day, thanks, few days later phone installed and working....

Again When our Ikeja Digital exchange burnt...(with serious and might connections to the GM of NITEL Ikeja), it took 3 months, after releasing some ejunge for the assistant to the MD, team in the office, the team that came to house said that that was a long story, no climbing of pole till more Kuza and ejunge will flow, several flows and gushes later, the phone dies in one week...more ejunge for the technician to come take a look at it at homes, eventually after about 5 months...

3. I'm off to El Paso Texas, BWI airport, damn! Flight delayed, announcement of delay, every few minutes, new arrival time, it shows on screen, I see gate number, airline name and time of arrival, plane arrives, eventually I simply walk through security to plane.

I am seeing my brother back to Kano at Lagos airport local...Kabo Air, ticket for the 2 pm flight? The flight has been cancelled. Till when? We do not know, but Chanchagi Air has a flight at 3.30pm...rushed to Chanchagi ..sorry sir you may get a ticket on the tarmac...How much? N5000, but it supposed to be N3500, Oga you an buy? 6.30 pm still at airport, now hoping for Okada Air, will try to sell Chanchagi ticket later...getting to plane waiting in "queue" at 7.15pm, What the plane is already full!? You gotta be kidding me...

4. I just finished school, looking for a new job car and an apartment, I put my resume online, few days the phone rings...Well I am job hunting. Ads in the newspaper every Sunday and Wednesday, I call, I go for interviews I talk to friends and family...I get a job finally, now my car...I get to dealer...don't want to pay all my life, I settle for a used 96 Toyota, $2000, down, 2 years to pay off the other $3000, suits me fine, my apartment I sin the works...all I need is one months rent and security deposit. ($1000) my salary for the month is $2200, tight but very affordable...


I just got out of OAU Ife, Finally after a great number of "X" extra years! Well all I need a job and car and a house... I find a house, 2-bedroom apartment, landlord says he likes me so askes for just 2 years rent in advance i.e, about N120,000...My car, where Apapa whalf..Cotonou or my in-law who is dealer... A good used Japanese, only N350,000 since he is my in-law, I can pay twice...okay maybe three times...Well its been 3 months and no job, maybe Uncle will employ me in that business of his...Well I may just get into Guaranty trust bank, after all I just finished school but where am I to now find N470,000 for a car and rent? Armed Robbery? No problem I guess...

5. Okay so I tried chasing the American dream, been here 10 years, still a second class citizen, well been able to g home a few times, still have $60,000 debt, Chineke! Well the kids are in good schools...Soon I retire and get a pension (guaranteed) The house was burgled last years but we got most back through insurance...even the flood was covered by insurance...Sule is now a Doctor at Johns Hopkins...Ireti just got an internship on Wall Street and even Uche who refused to read has been able to buy an Acura from his job at Mc'Donalds...Ah well

Well its been ten years now and I said Naija go betta...But where wil the kids school fees come from next year? Especially at the new private school? And Tunde still has no job after two years? Tinuke has her job and official car but for how long? Dike is now the head of the department but there are rumors that the Minister will be changed next year... And now that Armed Robber took my last car...

I could go on...both positive and negative, hope my words above make some sense...

[Meticulous]

Onos, I see I missed some history from the old site...Thnx for the heads up.

-----------------------

Ednut, to be real honest, I did not really notice anything negative about the Igbo accent, and I see Onos didn't either.

It didn't cross my mind as being an insult in any way.

But then again, that's just my view...

[Ednut]

If I remembered correctly, your very first post on this board was to predict its doom......Onos

Mazi,

Can you show that my first post that you correctly recalled my BIG BROTHER Onos. If not, then you are just another shameless nigerian liar.

Meti,

Of course you don't see it, just ask your white friends if they have ever noticed racisim around them, be it at school or at work. It is the person wearing the shoe that knows where it hurts.

[Picasso]

Ednut:

Are you still here ??

The records are there for all to see. I'll help you out anyway. Just scroll down the following link.

Ednut's 1st post

Ednut: Registered Member
Posts: 1
(4/19/03 9:47)

Well, let's see how this place will evolve first before sending out the congrats.

Why don't you guys just sign up at BNW instead of this strange looking board.

Edited by: Ednut at: 4/19/03 11:36:44 am

This was what you had to say when everyone was congratulating Big K for starting this board. By the way, I noticed you editted your original post almost 2 hours afterwards. I wish I could post the uneditted version.

Even at that, your intentions & the implication of the contents didn't change much.

There you go. Now, who is the shameless liar?

[Kenn]

People,

The fundamental premise upon which Ms Odunlami bases her argument may have some merit, but I think a lot of her assumptions and conclusions are wrong, if not downright ignorant. Nonetheless, I would not bother to question so many things she's said even on that basis; rather, I would ask: supposing Ms Odunlami belongs to the class that cannot afford to travel abroad or go on courses/conferences in places like Holland from Nigeria, supposing she's one of those barely able to carve out an existence, would she forego an opportunity to go abroad for 'patriotic' or other reasons, if such an opportunity presents itself for her to go out there and try a new life? I think from the little she's said about herself, there's little to suggest that she won't be singing a different tune if things were a little less rosy for her.

In any case, I think it is an issue only worth debating if the conditions at home were not as bad as it is; but in the circumstances, the arguments she's putting forward is otiose because survival is the first rule for man. Over the ages man has used migration to fashion new lives, new ways, new culture, advancement and all kinds of positive developments that civilization has come to know; yes, that is how the world has become what it is. If taken to task, Ms Odunlami's simplistic philosophy won't stand scrutiny.

Below is a piece I wrote almost 3 years ago as a rejoinder to one Dr Tunji Adetunji on the issue of brain drain. Some of us would recall Obasanjo's so-called 'Project Greater Nigeria' shortly after he came to office, which was supposedly aimed at dialoguing with Nigerian professionals in Diaspora with a view to getting their input into national development, etc. Obasanjo junketed from America to Europe, talking up this project; but when some of us arrived at the meeting/conference (I attended the one for Europe in London), it was no more than mere lip-service. It turned out that the government and indeed Obasanjo himself wasn't sincere. In one dramatic moment, he actually left without addressing the gathering on the issues. The Prince Ajibola-headed Nigerian embassy in London gave the excuse that he had to leave and the meeting has to be closed early because the payment for the hotel was only up to 12:00 midday that day! I really cannot relate the drama and humiliation enough. The biggest matter on the day for the embassy people and government officials was the party later in the evening!

Of course, some of us had seen the signs from the previous day at the conference itself and had stridently criticized the organization of the whole thing, including questioning the intentions of the government when it was obvious that organizers were not ready to listen to the professionals whose views they were supposedly seeking and the one and only reason for the conference itself. It was obvious that it was a public-relations exercise, meant to give the impression to the international community that the government was consulting widely, but which indeed was simply another opportunity to waste public fund on nothing!

Anyway, I think the piece below addresses the issue we're discussing here. Though it is not dealing with the issue from the general migration perspective; but I think it is adequate even within the circumscription of discussing it from the brain drain perspective.




CHEERS!


---------------------------------------------------------------------





RE: BRAIN DRAIN

A man travels the world over
in search of what he needs and
returns home to find it.
______ George Moore, The Brook Kerith (1916).

Dr Tunji Adetunji's piece on the brain drain and its effect on Africa, nay Nigeria published on this site is a heart-rending cry for redirection. With mind-boggling statistics and everyday examples, he manages to bring home to us the palpable tragedy of the situation.

However, while I share his sentiments fully, I wish to use this opportunity to make a few comments of my own as a contribution to the larger debate. I believe that to find a practical solution to the problem, we need to consider factors responsible for people leaving in droves, determine whether such factors can be reversed and, if so, to what extent; and, more importantly, to identify the forces or combination of forces that can make such a change possible.

There are several reasons why Nigerians leave home for abroad. Paradoxically, education is one. Education liberates the mind and puts the man on a quest. Your environment ideally should provide the challenge for that quest, but where it does not, you are bound to seek it elsewhere. It really does not matter where, as far as you find it. This explains why majority of those in the category mentioned by Dr Adetunji, for instance, can be classified as people who have come out here to seek professional fulfilment. Think of the lawyers, the doctors, the accountants and computer specialists you know out here. Would they have found professional fulfilment in the Nigeria of today? And if your answer is yes, then ask: would their chances of professional success be better here or there? Of course, sometimes there are no clear-cut answers to these questions, but I suppose that most people would say that the fact that they choose to remain here is evidence enough of their practical preferences, even if for sentimental reasons they probably would have preferred to be home.

Closely related to the factor of education and the quest for professional fulfilment is that of easier mobility of labour and economic migration. Today, the recruitment market is worldwide. Every page on the internet is asking for people to come and work in some far off place from where they now live. Distance is no longer a problem between a prospective employee and employer, markets are continually opening up and companies are forever growing. The globalisation of the labour force is quickly following the globalisation of business and in this age of the EU and NAFTA, national boundaries are almost becoming obsolete, so to speak. The result of all this is that more skilled and specialist workforce than ever before are going to be leaving for better jobs elsewhere and they are more and more likely to find it easier than before.

People leave also because of political and social instability. This is a very prominent factor in the dislocated societies of Africa. Wars, ethnic clashes, coups and all kinds of political discrimination and human rights abuses are prevalent even in the supposed democracies and so also are daylight robberies, lack of basic infrastructures like power or portable drinking water and decent healthcare. All these factors combine to make life meaningless for the general populace; and for the educated, things are often quite worse. Since it is among his ranks you are likely to hear opposition to the failure of state policies or for lack of them, he becomes the veritable head upon which the proverbial coconut is broken. Any of his tribe that manages to escape to 'civilization' usually wouldn't go back, even where some new regime comes to power. Self-exile, they'll tell you, is more assured than a false sense of security in your own so-called country.

Of course, apart from all these, there are those who leave just for the fun - for the pure sense of adventure or just for the love of travel and the experience of a new place. Again, there are those who leave for cultural reasons or for reasons of being married to foreigners or having a family outside the country, etc.

Now, a look at all the mentioned factors above would reveal that they are all human factors. Even the ones engineered or facilitated by governments and policies, like the politically and socially related ones, soon take up a life of their own. The purpose of pointing this out is to understand that as human motivations, there's a limit to what government can do, but still government remains the institution to set the stage. This it can do by incentives, that is, by creating the right atmosphere for the return of its nationals. This is the obvious starting point. But before considering what this incentives should be, based of course on the above factors, it would be necessary to consider whether there is ground to believe that such incentives are capable of being put in place by those who are now in authority. In other words, we are making 'psychoanalytical' deductions about the Nigerian leadership based on facts readily available to us about them, the purpose of which is to determine whether this kind of leaders are those we realistically expect to deliver on the necessary incentives.

Is the Nigerian government as presently constituted genuinely interested in the return or involvement of the Nigerian professional abroad? Based on its scorecard, the answer must be a NO. Though there were pretensions to meetings and talks about a year ago, every participant in that farce would admit that it was exactly that - a farce. This is not the forum to elaborate on this, but suffice it to note that the silence of the federal government ever since speaks volumes.

For the Nigerian government to take this issue seriously there has to be institutional change. This is not about singling out one person or a supposed head of the administration; we are talking fundamental change, in personnel and mentality. The reasons for this are obvious. Any government that runs on blatant patronage and a minimalist agenda would never want to rock the boat. Those abroad represent trouble. Having imbibed new values and brimming with the confidence of people informed enough to know how things should work the thinking in government circles is that we are likely to be a disruptive influence. We are more likely to sow ideas in the minds of already rumbled Nigerians to make a much more volatile mix. For any government no longer keen on fighting corruption or providing basic services, paying lip-service to professionals abroad is the beginning of wisdom.

As far as I am concerned, one of the key tests of government's credibility on this matter has just being proven. The fact that our government did not deem it fit to consult with Nigerian professionals abroad or anywhere in the relevant field before embarking on a so-called national space policy shows its aversion to knowledge and those who should know. It shows that this government has effectively become prisoner to the forces of retrogression and certainly is in no position to open the Pandora box of Nigerian professionals abroad. It would sooner open itself to a coup than to allow Nigerian professionals abroad to have any kind of say. This is because any involvement will require more involvement and no one can predict where that would end. Any measure that would open up the rot to the sane mind of the professional from abroad must be resisted, even as government continues to pay lip-service to them as the political mood determines.

So, who expects a government so blatantly compromised to give priority or even a cursory consideration to incentives, or to create the requisite atmosphere for the return of valuable manpower presently servicing foreign economies? Their priorities are quite different from our expectations and the earlier we imbibe that truth the better for us, and the less painful would be the inevitable disappointment. On that note, it must be clear to all clear-thinking patriots that the battle line is drawn. It is our sworn duty therefore to root out bad government and, where we cannot, to pressurise it to the extent that it acts, even in ways it doesn't want, to create the requisite condition for the return of our national manpower and with it also the return of true democracy because all that the foregoing analysis is trying to show is that they are intrinsically linked. We need not look from behind rose-tinted glasses anymore. The facts are obvious and it's time to make the decision of whether or not you are joining the march forward for the greatness of Nigeria

We should demand the incentive of a minimum of political and social stability in the form of genuine democratic freedom and the security of life and property. We must condemn blatant patronage and unguarded corruption as totally anti-democratic, because they threaten the lives of Nigerians and remove bread from their mouths. It is time to have a proper look at the police and do what we have to do. A force that has become incapable of protecting ordinary law-abiding citizens from marauders of all kinds is a liability and deserves nothing but a TOTAL PURGE. Of course, it must be admitted that having inherited them from a fascist and criminal dispensation, the first thing they need now after the mass purge is MASSIVE RETRAINING. After that, they must then be given everything they need for their job, including the co-operation of EVERY Nigerian.

Our government must be told that it does not need magic or the movement of heaven to earth to create a viable economic environment. All that it needs is vision and for those who rule our nation at the very top to wake up each day and ask: what can I do today to put bread on the tables of more Nigerians? Yes, if they ask continually they are bound to have answers because it is the spirit with which a government surrounds itself that it shall be woven in. There's blatant corruption today because those at the very top are corrupt; there is power failure today because those at the very top choose to do nothing about it; there are violent robberies today because those at the very top are violent robbers. A nation is what the leadership makes of it and a people deserve the kind of leadership they get. Everything is in our hands. Our nation is abundantly blessed, so God has done His own bit. The rest is in our hands.

Lastly, may I call on the government to start forthwith the process of national mobilization-properly-so-called for the task at hand - the task of cleansing the nation. Obasanjo should note that he convinces no one of the sanctity of his government by calling 'God!' 'God!' everyday while the Devil claims our nation. If he's not equal to the job, if he fears for his life and if he really knows he has no idea about moving the country forward and no skills to tap the knowledge of the millions who know, both at home and abroad, this is the time to quit. And that, to me, is courage.


K. C. EMETULU

[Ednut]

your intentions & the implication of the contents didn't change much.

I see the conjecture now. My intentions? You read minds too? Why so paltry, so hostile, spew such bile? Anyway, there really is no need for this drivel this is not about me but about this peevish dullard and her parochial ingenuous fable. Focus or go back to ROMland.

[PopGee]

Embedded in Ms. Odunlami's article, as Obugi rightly observed, is the bad belle element and negative stereotypes from some back home about those who chose to emigrate.

All too often this class of people and others abroad whose social universe is largely made up of struggling or criminal-minded Nigerians draws generalizations as to the status or motivations those in Diaspora.

Not every Nigerian I know is here flipping burgers, in jail or engaged in "Odu" or cannot meet rent payments. Not every Nigerian left the country as an economic refugee, though migrating for a better life is as old as mankind.

Speaking for myself, I would have done better staying back in Nigeria, even under Abacha, were I willing to sacrifice my principles for what passes as the good life back home. I and most of my friends decided to leave because were raised right and educated well enough to know that we did not have to compromise with evil to succeed in life.

Three former classmates became Governors post-Abacha and others held/hold top positions in govt (and folks here know what that is worth in contracts).

It is as insulting as it is uninformed when some here continue to project others as economic vagrants or less patriotic for escaping the hell-hole that Nigeria became.

Most of the Nigerians I know here are professionally accomplished, successful and HAPPY with the quality of life they have - not least of, as Aji reminds - enjoying constant power supply, municipal services, good (and continous) education and value for every cent they earn or pay in taxes.

And they have the ability to hold public officials accountable, seek redress through due process and have the best opportunities for the advancement of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (aka the American Dream). Such basic services as the preceding are only available to a privileged (and often corrupt) minority in Nigeria - and on that we don't have to quibble.

Ms Odunlami and fellow travellers should/can pursue their own dreams where/how they find it but concede to others the right to do same. Staying or going back to Nigeria is not proof of patriotism but simply a judgement call on what each of us is willing to accept or sacrifice for whatever we define as happiness.

[Ndigbo]

Too much time is wasted discussing irrelevant issues. If one feels that Nigeria is rosy and better, (s)he should go home and and stop wasting Kunle's internet space debating it. It is very cold here in Massachuestts. Matter of fact it snowed last weekend and we got like 28 inches, everything is covered. It took me about two hours to dig out my car. Since Sunday I have been wasting extra 45 minutes to get to the main street from my house (it used to be 15 min) because of the snow. I was unable to find my trash cans today because they are buried in the snow. But guess what .. flipping burgers, washing plate, driving cab, I love it here, I want to be here and I don't want to be in NIGERIA. Ms Odunlami and co, deal with it!

[Ajibs]

Ndigbo, you go kill me wit laff... :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin