Mixed religious marriages

[Tola Odejayi]

Most of us are familiar with mixed ethnic marriages (which are becoming increasingly common in urban areas), but it's less common to find mixed religious marriages.

I've been pondering this, and I'd like to throw out a few questions (seasoned with my observations):

Is this what you observe as well, i.e. do you agree that mixed religious marriages are less common?

If so, could the reason for this be that religions are much more formal in their disapproval of mixed marriages? I know of the ordinance in Islam which condemns an apostate to death, but surely it is possible for a Muslim to preserve her religion if married to a Christian (unless of course the Christian decides to invoke this passage and not marry her after all).

Is this disapproval of mixed marriages something that also exists between denominations of various religions, e.g. Pentecostals should not be married to Catholics?

Is it fair to say that a religious mixed couple who decide to get married after all will probably have a stronger marriage? After all, if they could decide to go ahead and marry in the face of adversity, then the love must be something else, no?

If you have come across a mixed couple, how have they managed to negotiate the differences in their world outlook, especially in matters like raising children? Is it no different from how an ethnically mixed couple does this? Or is it more difficult because religion can be more important to a person than his ethnicity?

Just as ethnically mixed marriages are hailed as a means of bringing about ethnic tolerance (by some), do you think that we should encourage religious mixed marriages as a way of strengthening religious tolerance?

As an incentive, any answer to these questions gets a gold-plated 'Thank You' from me.

Cheers,

Shoko

[No Smoking]

Nor be gold-plated incentive we want. Na dat kunu, ehn o.

Mixed marriages are laced with problems from the beginning to the end. The inter-racial problems linger as long as the communities involved wish to stretch it.

Inter-ethnic marriages tend to stabilise quickest, with more chances of success (barring internal conflicts).

The religious variety is a tough cookie. Usually, it comes with a strong demand from one group to have the intended spouse converted first, before the wedding can go-ahead. Pakistani and Nigerian muslims tend to impose this demand, plus wedding according to the muslim rites.

Coming to Christian inter-denominational marriages, take the high profile case of the Blairs of UK as an example. There's the strain of separate houses of worship, because the two faiths have certain differences blocking full integration. Tony is nearly completing his cross-over arrangements to the Catholic Church.

Make I go come. Abeg pass di kunu to emj to celebrate her thanksgiving..

[emj]

If you have come across a mixed couple, how have they managed to negotiate the differences in their world outlook, especially in matters like raising children? Is it no different from how an ethnically mixed couple does this? Or is it more difficult because religion can be more important to a person than his ethnicity?

Just as ethnically mixed marriages are hailed as a means of bringing about ethnic tolerance (by some), do you think that we should encourage religious mixed marriages as a way of strengthening religious tolerance?

As an incentive, any answer to these questions gets a gold-plated 'Thank You' from me.

Cheers,

Hmmm......u don start again with ya mind exploring reasoning.....okay, come let us reason together, but sha dat ya incentive too small se u get.

Okay now......ethnically mixed marriages last longer than mixed religious marriages. I've seen a lady who is a Christian, married to a Moslem.....they are still together. They've learnt how to negotiate their way through, though the man insist than his kids shld not go to church with her, she's allowed to attend service. They pray together in the morning. He prays and she prays and both say amen. It's a difficult huddle, but they love each other to bits. She's learnt to respect him, and vice versa, but as an African man and Nigeria, he's the head of the home.

As per Pentecostal and Catholics, i see more of those too, cos one that is born again always feel that he or she will convert the other.....it takes the grace of God to do that.

As to mixed religious marriages curbing religious intolerance.....hmmm......don't know...religious intolerance runs deep in some parts of Nigeria se u get.

As per NS...No smoking's request to send the Kunu to me, don't mind him......he's one of those Nigerian Men stalking me on NVS, and i've reported him to ISL..........VQAS

[crimsonbabe]

Most of us are familiar with mixed ethnic marriages (which are becoming increasingly common in urban areas), but it's less common to find mixed religious marriages.

I've been pondering this, and I'd like to throw out a few questions (seasoned with my observations):

Is this what you observe as well, i.e. do you agree that mixed religious marriages are less common?

If so, could the reason for this be that religions are much more formal in their disapproval of mixed marriages? I know of the ordinance in Islam which condemns an apostate to death, but surely it is possible for a Muslim to preserve her religion if married to a Christian (unless of course the Christian decides to invoke this passage and not marry her after all).

Is this disapproval of mixed marriages something that also exists between denominations of various religions, e.g. Pentecostals should not be married to Catholics?

Is it fair to say that a religious mixed couple who decide to get married after all will probably have a stronger marriage? After all, if they could decide to go ahead and marry in the face of adversity, then the love must be something else, no?

If you have come across a mixed couple, how have they managed to negotiate the differences in their world outlook, especially in matters like raising children? Is it no different from how an ethnically mixed couple does this? Or is it more difficult because religion can be more important to a person than his ethnicity?

Just as ethnically mixed marriages are hailed as a means of bringing about ethnic tolerance (by some), do you think that we should encourage religious mixed marriages as a way of strengthening religious tolerance?

As an incentive, any answer to these questions gets a gold-plated 'Thank You' from me.

Cheers,

Shoko

IMHO, mixed ethnicity marriages will be easier than inter-religion ones. My parents may ask me a few more questions than usual if I wanted to marry a guy from a different ethnicity but once they are satisfied that he's a good guy and I love him, they will be fine with my choices. Maybe because its not a big deal anymore. I have all sorts of cousins that are 1/2 this or that...

But the inter religious one is difficult sha.. who decides what religion the children follow, what about the family? I think a family that prays together stays together. So how do you pray as a family. I dont understand the one of everyone says their own prayer and then Amen.. For me, its important that all my children are brought up with the same strong christian values that I was given. Its a huge part of who I am today, the whole package thats CB. My sense of self is strongly linked with this belief system and my moral compass is fervently guided by this. That wouldnt work if my husband and I are not sympatico in that respect. I believe I owe it to my children to impart and share all and more than my parents shared with us... I dont know how else I can get this but I'm sure there are other ways but I can only use the tools iat my disposal and the man one is my faith...

As for the inter denominational marriages,, that is so a non-issue IMHO.. again maybe because its so common too.. I know so many mixed denomination e.g. catholic and anglican marriages that have worked for decades adn still working.. of course many, one person converts but still common enough where they maintain their faiths.. Funny enough many of the young couples I know that are mixed denomination dont even go to either now and are now pentecostal with their children..

My very good friend was born anglican and recently married a catholic in a nice catholic church in Nigeria and parents were happy (as per, I was brought up to say that you follow your husband to his church) but they both came back to the US and continued going to their pentecostal church.. and everyone is happy..

Having said all this.. I know inter denominational marriages are not easy too.. i personally know many Igbo catholic families that refused to let their daughter marry a non catholic boy but that is not as common as it used to be... We, the daughters have all open eyes and many are going against papa and mama.. This was happening to my cousin and after the 2nd guy that she was talking marriage with didnt work out becos her parents no gree for the non catholic thing, she was 32 and met this really nice bobo, who loved her to bits but who definitely wasnt catholic and her dad started the same old song and she just told her parents that they can choose to be a part or not of her wedding and while they were still deciding, she was gonna go ahead and start trying for a baby before her eggs dry up while waiting for a nice catholic boy.. went ahead, planned wedding, printed invitation.. and of course the parents came around.. Her mum is on he 2nd omugwo and the world didnt end

My $0.2
CB

[ISL]

I cannot possibly express in words how dear this topic is to my heart....

[Tola Odejayi]

No Smoking,

Nor be gold-plated incentive we want. Na dat kunu, ehn o.

As we speak, the boffins at Shoko Loko Labs (a fully incorporated subsidiary of MadIdeas plc) are working on the digitization of kunu as a top priority project. I'll keep you posted...

Now to the topic at hand:

Mixed marriages are laced with problems from the beginning to the end. The inter-racial problems linger as long as the communities involved wish to stretch it.

Can you expand on this? Are you talking about how different racial communities frown on mixed marriages? And assuming this is the case, does this imply that the problems with inter-religious marriages could also lie with the different communities and families as much as the couple themselves?

Inter-ethnic marriages tend to stabilise quickest, with more chances of success (barring internal conflicts).

The religious variety is a tough cookie. Usually, it comes with a strong demand from one group to have the intended spouse converted first, before the wedding can go-ahead. Pakistani and Nigerian muslims tend to impose this demand, plus wedding according to the muslim rites.

I've certainly heard of Christian women converting to marry Muslim men, especially where the man is very influential in society. I do wonder whether this conversion is more symbolic, to give the impression that the man can maintain an outwardly harmonious household, rather than because he wants them to be zealous about following Islam. So as long as she changes her name, dresses the part and shows up at important occasions at the mosque, everything is all right. But I may be wrong, and I hope someone can enlighten me.

Coming to Christian inter-denominational marriages, take the high profile case of the Blairs of UK as an example. There's the strain of separate houses of worship, because the two faiths have certain differences blocking full integration. Tony is nearly completing his cross-over arrangements to the Catholic Church.

I wasn't aware of this. I'm surprised, because I thought that British people were much more liberal in matters of religion. I guess it's all personal...



Emj,

Hmmm......u don start again with ya mind exploring reasoning.....okay, come let us reason together, but sha dat ya incentive too small se u get.

I know - but that's just the way I am. The day my access to knowledge and information is stopped, life will lose its meaning for me.

Okay now......ethnically mixed marriages last longer than mixed religious marriages. I've seen a lady who is a Christian, married to a Moslem.....they are still together. They've learnt how to negotiate their way through, though the man insist than his kids shld not go to church with her, she's allowed to attend service. They pray together in the morning. He prays and she prays and both say amen. It's a difficult huddle, but they love each other to bits. She's learnt to respect him, and vice versa, but as an African man and Nigeria, he's the head of the home.

I'm not sure many Christian women would be able to follow her example. I don't know what harm it would do to let the kids attend both mosque and church and make their minds up as they grow older - but I'm sure she probably finds a way of letting them know about her faith.

As per Pentecostal and Catholics, i see more of those too, cos one that is born again always feel that he or she will convert the other.....it takes the grace of God to do that.

I don't think that's a good attitude to enter the marriage with, especially if the converter finds out that they cannot easily convert the prospective convert, and ends up even irritating the prospective convert.



CrimsonBabe,

We will fight one day o! Have I not warned you about devaluing your opinion? Two cents my foot!

Anyway...

IMHO, mixed ethnicity marriages will be easier than inter-religion ones. My parents may ask me a few more questions than usual if I wanted to marry a guy from a different ethnicity but once they are satisfied that he's a good guy and I love him, they will be fine with my choices. Maybe because its not a big deal anymore. I have all sorts of cousins that are 1/2 this or that...

But the inter religious one is difficult sha.. who decides what religion the children follow, what about the family? I think a family that prays together stays together. So how do you pray as a family. I dont understand the one of everyone says their own prayer and then Amen.. For me, its important that all my children are brought up with the same strong christian values that I was given. Its a huge part of who I am today, the whole package thats CB. My sense of self is strongly linked with this belief system and my moral compass is fervently guided by this. That wouldnt work if my husband and I are not sympatico in that respect. I believe I owe it to my children to impart and share all and more than my parents shared with us... I dont know how else I can get this but I'm sure there are other ways but I can only use the tools iat my disposal and the man one is my faith...

So my suggestion of both parents imparting their values to the children wouldn't work in your case? Surely, it can only be good if they have the opportunity of comparing both religions and deciding which to choose... and if they choose yours, I believe they will be much fervent believers than if they were just made to believe by default, in so far as they made a conscious choice.

In fact, one thing that puzzles me is the way that a spouse of one faith wants to impose their faith on the other spouse. My thinking is that as a husband, I should find out my wife's goals, decide that they are not materially or emotionally injurious to her and then support her in those goals as much as I can. If those goals include being a good Muslim, then even if I am a Christian, I should still support her to the extent that it does not compromise my own faith. I mean, I could drive her to the mosque, I could show an interest in her activities... does that make me guilty of sin? I don't know. But actions are a much more powerful testimony that a million words, and it might make her more likely to end up believing what I believe.

As for the inter denominational marriages,, that is so a non-issue IMHO.. again maybe because its so common too.. I know so many mixed denomination e.g. catholic and anglican marriages that have worked for decades adn still working.. of course many, one person converts but still common enough where they maintain their faiths.. Funny enough many of the young couples I know that are mixed denomination dont even go to either now and are now pentecostal with their children..

My very good friend was born anglican and recently married a catholic in a nice catholic church in Nigeria and parents were happy (as per, I was brought up to say that you follow your husband to his church) but they both came back to the US and continued going to their pentecostal church.. and everyone is happy..

"Everyone is happy" as long as nobody knows what is happening in the States. It's interesting that the pressure to remain in the Catholic church seemed to come more from the family than the church.

Having said all this.. I know inter denominational marriages are not easy too.. i personally know many Igbo catholic families that refused to let their daughter marry a non catholic boy but that is not as common as it used to be... We, the daughters have all open eyes and many are going against papa and mama.. This was happening to my cousin and after the 2nd guy that she was talking marriage with didnt work out becos her parents no gree for the non catholic thing, she was 32 and met this really nice bobo, who loved her to bits but who definitely wasnt catholic and her dad started the same old song and she just told her parents that they can choose to be a part or not of her wedding and while they were still deciding, she was gonna go ahead and start trying for a baby before her eggs dry up while waiting for a nice catholic boy.. went ahead, planned wedding, printed invitation.. and of course the parents came around.. Her mum is on he 2nd omugwo and the world didnt end

I'll remember that tactic if I encounter any opposition marrying my Buddhist Korean ex-stripper girl friend!

I cannot possibly express in words how dear this topic is to my heart....

Please try, ISL - there's a gold-plated thanks in it for you

Cheers,

Shoko

[No Smoking]

Chei, Lunch time don run out on me.

@SLB
I still dey come.

@emj
Ehn, yu wan take me curry ISL favour, ko??

[Myne Whitman]

I think that mixed religious marriages are also less common than mixed ethnic marriages. The latter is so common while the former is another story altogether. This might be explained a bit by religions frowning more on mixed marriages, but also by the fact that in Nigeria, ethnic groups are more mixed up than religions. For instance, the percentage of Muslims to the total population in Kano will be a lot higher than the percentage of Yoruba in Lagos. I use these states cos they are both commercial centres and are the home states of the illustrative religion and ethnic group. In another example, while almost half of my extended family intermarried with other ethnic groups, only one of them married a Muslim. She converted and brought up her 2 children as Muslims. The condition for keeping them when the couple separated was that she remain a Muslim and she is almost a pariah in the family…

The disapproval against interdenominational marriages was stronger when it was virtually only the Roman Catholics and the Anglicans that held sway in the country. With the advent of Pentecostal churches, it is not as pervasive. It is still a factor though for parents who are entrenched in their churches with one title or the other and answerable to the Archbishop or even the Pope himself. LOL. However, most young people tend to get away with marrying outside the denominations since they attend Pentecostal churches already…

I knew this couple back in naija who had been married for just over 5 years, both in their thirties. The guy is a Yoruba Muslim while the wife is a calabar MFM Christian. For the time I knew them, it was love ‘nwantiti’ all the way. The man went to his mosque on Fridays and prayed as many times a day as he was supposed to. The wife went to church as many times as she wanted with their two daughters. They had a baby boy early last year and the cracks appeared. The man had agreed that the children will follow mum to church till they are old enough to make up their minds. Now he has changed his mind, it was time the girls started learning about islam and the boy will not even go to church (he was dedicated in church sha). The woman later said that she had thought to convert the guy who was not so serious when they met, had even come to church a few times. In the absence of that, to indoctrinate the children in church so they can never convert. Well they are still together and hopefully, that strong love will conquer all…

On whether religion is more important than ethnicity to an individual, or whether religious mixed marriages will lead to greater tolerance, I will leave that for another day. One thing I have to say about all mixed marriages is that they rarely happen in the enclaves of either the religious or ethnic chauvinists but in already cosmopolitan areas and as such, their impact is watered down…

[No Smoking]

Mixed marriages are laced with problems from the beginning to the end. The inter-racial problems linger as long as the communities involved wish to stretch it.

Can you expand on this? Are you talking about how different racial communities frown on mixed marriages? And assuming this is the case, does this imply that the problems with inter-religious marriages could also lie with the different communities and families as much as the couple themselves?

Yawa. Mulan contributed along that line, too. "Honour killings" are at the extreme end of such hostilities. A whole stretch of other minor discomforts can be expected, where the families and/or communities remain unrelenting.

Going back to some of Mulan's examples, you may find a young man born into a muslim family, but who has not taken up the tenets of the religion seriously himself. From his clubbing and general socialising, he lands a non-muslim GF. If the relationship grows either into a noble wedding or just a pregnancy out of wedlock, that's when the boy's muslim parents and elders swing into action, applying pressure on getting the GF and any proceeding infants into the muslim way.

Can anyone upgrade my memory about the Edewor man who married Abiola's daughter?? Did he get to covert to Islam? I followed their progression for sometime, but since lost track.

[.bebi]

I do not see inter-religious marriages becoming very common in a not too distant future,unless we r talking about lukewarm christians and muslims till they die.I have a cousin who is not a practicing christian,met,dated and eventually married a muslim.When they were dating,becoming a muslim was not even in de agenda.Dis guy used to buy her skimpy outfits and they painted the town red together.Fast forward to marriage in England and this same guy was now insisting on her covering even her face.Ofcourse the marriage did not work out for various reasons bordering on religion.
.About inter-denominational marriages, they r already getting very common but do they foster tolerance?Maybe, maybe not.Inter-ethnic marriages are common now and I believe soon,every family in Nigeria will have an Ahmed,Essien,Nnenna,Olawale and Esoghe and our dream of one Nigeria will come true.yipeeeeeee

[Tola Odejayi]

It's interesting that in all the religious mixed marriages that have been cited in stories so far, it's been a case of a Muslim man marrying a Christian woman. I wonder if it works the other way? No Smoking gave the example of the Edewor-Abiola marriage - I seem to recall that the man (Edewor) was asked to convert, but I somehow doubt if that marriage would have lasted long.

I think I agree with .Bebi (is the dot optional?) when she says that inter-religious marriages work better if both parties are relaxed about their faith. I wonder about the story she cited where the man did a 180 degree turn regarding his wife's adherence to Islam - perhaps it was community induced pressure that made him do this? Perhaps his people didn't care very much when his wife was just his girlfriend, but as soon as things became serious, they swung into action (as No Smoking has said they do)?

Of course, sometimes there may be an interplay of ethnicity and religion in the workability and tolerance in mixed marriages (something that I think Mulan has alluded to). For example, I think that a marriage between a Yoruba Christian marries a Yoruba Muslim is more likely to be stable than a marriage between a Hausa Muslim and a Hausa Christian. This is because there are large enough communities of both Yoruba Christians and Muslims that some intermixing and tolerance would have developed between the different religions. Of course, my theory can be tested to see what happens with other ethnic groups where there are large communities of different religions, and where there are groups with almost just one religion. Has anyone heard of an Igbo Muslim marrying an Igbo Christian, and how did that work out?

[DoubleWahala]

Interesting topic, Shoko.

I choose to focus on inter-denominational marriages because, it is more relevant to my immediate circumstance.

I'm Anglican. I was born into an ardent Christian (Anglican) home. My parents are both Christian Anglicans. My old man is even a knight of the church, but I digress....

However, I'm not a particularly serious or ardent Anglican Christian practioner...or a practioner of any other religious or spiritual faith, for that matter.

I met two Igbo women this year. One lives here in the US, while the other lives in England. They're both Catholic Christians.

After just about a month or so of interacting with the one who lives in the states, she, on her own volition, without any prodding or enquiries from me, bluntly told me that she could only think of having a full catholic wedding.

She also informed me that she would not be willing to bring up her kids in any other denomination, but the catholic faith....even if her husband is not catholic....no matter what her future husband may think of such an arrangement.

The one who lives in England was more subtle. I asked her pointedly about what she thought about inter-denominational marriages and its potential impact on the parents' decision on how to raise the kids along religious lines.

She 'hemmed and hawed' her way through, waffling all the way, without giving me a precise answer. Mind you, before then (on various occasions) she never hesitated to 'impress' her catholicism upon me. So, did a cat bite-off her tongue this time around?

I was really amused with both women. When I asked the first woman (resident in the U.S.) if it didn't matter to her that I am not catholic, or that I may have a different take on her stance, she muttered something about me not being a "serious" Christian, and implied that I should let the more religiously "serious" partner unilaterally decide whats best. I just smiled. As far as I was concerned, her position was a no-brainer for me. I just backed-off.

If from the get-go, she was so gung-ho about this sort of thing, then there was no point really. What ever happened to concepts like discussion, agreement and/or compromise?

Now, regarding the one in England...she appears smarter, but more convoluted than the other one. She failed to give me a categorical answer, even when it was clear that I considered her views on the issue to be quite important.

The irony of the whole thing is that I'm not particularly strident about my religous convictions. I believe in 'live and let live'. However, the moment my wife purports to make unilateral decisions, supposedly based on the fact that I'm not "serious" religiously, without consulting and/or reaching a compromise or agreement with me, then it means that that union is on shaky grounds.

In the final analyses, I think it is an issue that shouldn't be glossed over before going into marriage. It should be openly discussed and freely and willingly agreed upon, before taking the ultimate step.

DW

[OverLoad]

Its no longer a serious issue at all..used to be an issue back in them days in nigeria, but now things are fast changing.( As far as I know), especially for 9jans in diaspora.
Inter-denominational, Inter-Religious marriages work out 99% of the time again as far as i know...

Most Nigerians are more forgiving of Inter-Religious marriages than of Inter or Intra Ethnic Marriages.
If yur parents say ..."oh you can't marry him he belongs to the prebystain (sp) chruch..try saying to them, oh okay i will marry my hausa/yoruba/AA bf who is catholic and see how they will turn around and accept d first guy fast, saying at least hes a xtain and i know his family or can find out in the village"...sad........

Personally I think what matters most is your heart, how you treat ur fellow brothers and sisters,what your thoughts are towards the next person, (all of these ideally should be part of religion, but unfortunately, not always the case)..

I have a muslim friend that married a xtain guy and looking at them i guess love supercedes...and they are doing well....
Fine its good to agree in terms of faith but its not a necessary prerequisite for happy marriages.
Infact I think its good , cos you give your children the freedom to chose whatever path they please and help them develop tolerance for other religious sect.

And shuuuu....for ppl abroad, where dating pool is not as large as in 9ja...all dis 'list' ppl make up for marriage partners, they all disappear when they age...a womon who is 39 looking at 40 , even if she meets iron worshipper, she will pray on it rather than say its a NO-NO.....i guess as you grow older your list grows shorter.....

Ethnic marriages on the other hand are tougher...theres language barrier...depending on the family they might hate you , for not being one of their own and usually when you marry someone , you marry their family too, so that makes it harder.

Bottom Line its all about tolerance and above all , it all depends on the 2 ppl involved and how far they are willing to travel together in the same suit.

[crimsonbabe]

I'm very surprised to read DW and Overload posts above.

@DW

I am really surprised that these 2 girls were that particularly about whether or not you were catholic in 2007. Most Igbo girls I know are really not that particular abt the inter-denominational thing. I have various friends and relatives who are married anglican and married to catholics and vice versa (I use Anglican and Catholic becos there are the 2 orthodox christian sects that I am most familiar with)..

Maybe these girls have to been exposed by knowing others that inter-married or maybe they are very young..

@Overload

i guess its different strokes and all. becos I am of the extreme view to yours. IMHO, inter-ethnic marriages.. so very easy relative to inter -religious ones for me.. having said that, maybe it does depend on what ethnic group one is from in 9ja.. I would go as far as hazard a guess that if one is from an ethnic group with mixed religions.. muslims, christians etc.. chances are that its pretty common to have mixed religions in one family so as a christian marrying a muslim or vice versa.. of the same ethnicity, no problem since you may have cousins, aunts, uncles etc that are muslims.. but I would say for me, since I dont personally know any Igbo muslims (i have heard that there are a few.. but I dont know them), the chances are that if i marry a muslim, he would also be non-igbo..

My $0.2
CB

[Amy]

Hi SBL,

Very interesting topic, no doubt. I believe the concept of mixed religious marriage is what my 9 year old will call a dis-pa-ra-te! Any of the siblings that dares to make grammatical errors of any sort in the house gets a resounding "dis-pa-ra-te" yarn from her.

Anywaz, back to the topic. I just can't conceive the likelihood of marrying someone that does not share my basic spiritual beliefs because spirituality forms a huge part of who I am- my worldview, decision making, lifestyle and what have you. In fact, it was the number #1 consideration for me when I was single and ready to get involved in a serious relationship that will result in marriage.

As someone else said, mixed religious marriage can only make sense for two religiously uncommitted individuals, in which case they are actually "religiously" bonded in their unbelief, if you get my drift.

Marriage by it's very definition is a deep-sitted agreement or covenant between a man and a woman. Personally, I think one of it's foundational elements is a shared belief system or lack of the same.

Initially, blinded by infatuation, passion or loneliness, some couples that subscribe to divergent religious traditions/faith may seem to get along, but sooner than later, the disagreements, arguments and despairing feelings of alienation begin to surface and by then, it is too late to negotiate a common path for the relationship.

A recent incident readily comes to mind. A relative of ours called to discuss her marriage plans with me. When I found out he is a serious catholic while she is not, I asked her why that did not constitute a concern for her, given that she claimed to be a religious person. I mentioned children and how they will be raised; which set of beliefs they will be exposed to and so forth. At that point it dawned on me that she had managed to mentally block such considerations from her thought process in the bid to go ahead with the marriage at all cost. The best answer she could come up with was that she was a little confused but was trusting God that things will work out for them and maybe he will change his religious persuasions with time. At that point, I knew she was simply living in denial and was unprepared to look reality in the face and call it by it's name. Needless to say, they went ahead with the traditional rites but never got to the alter because the guy pummeled her a few times just months after she moved in with him. They just couldn't agree on any one issue. They are now separated and bitterly so, thanks to the lady's shortsightedness and other confounding veriables.

I have always believed that the recipe for staying happily married is to choose right from the get go. If religion plays an important role in ones life, marrying someone that is averse to such religious persuasions is a recipe for katakata in the marriage. It is almost guaranteed that conflicts will be ignited at every turn when the time comes for serious family decisions.

Furthermore, when the sore trials come, bible believing couples, for instance, tend to turn to God in prayer, fasting, studying the word and leaning on each other for comfort, encouragement and solace. If that common understanding does not exist, it will seem like a wedge exists between two people that should be walking in the same direction. In short, it is near impossible to build a spiritually solid home if one party is not inclined in that direction.

Conversely, if both parties do not have any serious religious inclinations and only consider religion to be a label, then they will be better disposed to explore other options in unison when the tough times come. Conflicts will certainly be minimal if their lack of commitment to a given set of religious beliefs is mutual.

Personally, I will not advise anyone to get involved in a mixed religious marriage, especially if one of them is a deeply religious person simply because it tends to be problematic as time rolls by and family decisions have to be made that could involve hinging such decisions on religious traditions.

Living a life of compromising your spiritual persuasions because you feel the need to cave in to your spouse's wishes must be very frustrating and disappointing. Life is too short to perpetually spend it living a lie that you know could have been avoided from the start. I will rather be married to someone from the remotest part of the planet than be unequally yoked with an unbeliever from my village in marriage. No game at all!

Besides, why would anyone intentionally want to stay hooked for life to someone that does not share his or her spiritual persuasions, if spirituality means anything to such a person? How will their discussions flow if they do not gel on that basic level? I have observed that Atheists, agnostics and others of no known spiritual persuasion tend to flow best with partners that are similarly unattached to any given set of religious ideals. Generally, I believe it will be difficult for two people to walk in the same path in life's journey if they disagree on a foundational(spiritual) level, IMHO.

Later o.

[Exxcuzme]

I have a sister who is a hardcore member, now of Redeem Church, and she is married to an Alhaji for over 25yrs now. She does her thing while he does his thing. The kids are not forced into any religion. However the boys are Muslims while the Girls gravitate toward Christianity.

In my house, no one tells you what religion to dabble in, though my Parents are Muslims but they did never tell us not to go to Church or Mosque (expecially Akara Saara). Growing up, I dabble in Christianity due to the pressure of evangelicals who would come to Mushin then to display horrible pictures of hells. Since I do not want to go to hell and mix with red people with horns depicted in their pics I will go to their church. The next night another denomination would come with their own pics saying if you dont join their church, you will go to hell. After so many of them, I got confused and stop going to Church all together. After high school I tried being a Muslim but the inability of learning the Quran, laziness of waking up in the middle of the night to pray and the inability of learning Arabic to pray made me fashe/left the religion.

When I decided to marry, I found most Naija girls that are christians have turned into fana as in fanatics. Apart from that, being a smart man that I am, I figure I could convince a Muslim woman that if I need to take a 2nd up to a 4th wife, if I so wish, therefore, I chose a Muslim woman instead. How smart is that? ughn?

Shoko, give me mine!

[Soul Sista]

Personally, I cannot understand how two persons committed to their religions, two different religions, can be married to one another. But, my world view on this matter is deliberately limited. I would not support inter-religious marriage of any sort for reasons better expressed by Amy than I could hope to express myself. Marriage is tough enough without adding that extra layer of stress. But, to each his/her own.

Soul Sista a/k/a Soul Sizzling

[DoubleWahala]

Come to think of it, growing up in Lagos, most of my childhood friends were/are Yoruba.

I discovered that many-a-times, a friend's mom may be Xtian, while the dad is Moslem, or vice-versa. It did not affect their upbringing in any way. The kids, as they grew up, usually identified with one religion or the other.

As a matter of fact, I remember that such families even observed all the different religious ceremonies/holidays; Ileya, Xmas, etc. It was great fun, back in those days because, I happily partook of the 'double-celebration(s)', what with the endless 'chopping' and general 'jollof'.

I believe that historical facts/forces shaped this turn-of-events in south-western Nigeria. They, more than any other area of the country, have had a long and rich history of accomodating both faiths side-by-side.

For some reason, which I'm yet to fully understand, this long history of tolerance and acceptance of each others' religion (in the south-west) is dying out. Everywhere, folks are becoming more strident about their faiths and conviction, yet the country is decomposing at an even faster rate......an unfathomable contradiction, but I digress.

DW

[oh baby]

I don't subscribe to people of different faiths getting married,there are the kids to consider,that being said,hmmm,there are other things to take into pesperctive,both parties involved, do they respect each-other's beliefs?,not with outsiders telling them what to do.

One more thing, if the boy or girl did not meet anyone they are compatible with,or the girl's time clock is running out, no boyfriend at 40, someone comes along, that you reallly,really liked, educated, good manners, loves you, and what she aspires for in a partner, you will not do because of a different faith, i beg make una answer my question, cos there is someone in that shoes now, she played ball.

[Tola Odejayi]

So with the clear exception of OverLoad (and possibly Exxcuzme), everyone seems to feel that mixed religious marriages are difficult to sustain, and some (notably Amy and Soul Sista) would not even have considered entering into them.

I can understand Amy's argument that two zealous members of different faiths might find it hard to coexist. However, this is really only an issue if both faiths stress the need to maintain the purity of the faith by avoiding continuous and prolonged association with those of other faiths - something that is the case with Christianity and Islam, the two major religions in Nigeria.

As it happens, I believe that most people (Christian, Muslim and non-religious) have a broad agreement on what kinds of interpersonal behaviour are right and wrong, based on the ethic of reciprocity. I think the differences between Christianity and Islam are mostly on doctrinal matters, like where to pray, how to pray, what spiritual beliefs to have, etc.

In fact, I think it is possible that a non-religious person could marry someone with a strong religious belief and the marriage could work. The proviso is that the non-believer should still be someone with a high ethical standard, and she should love the believer enough to respect his belief and even support him as he follows his faith. After all, we all take an active interest in the affairs of our loved ones, even though we may not participate in those affairs ourselves.

As to raising children, the believer could take them to his place of worship if he wanted, and the non-believer could simply put her point of view to the child and stress that it is just her point of view. As to raising the child, if as I said the non-believer has a strong sense of ethics, I can't really see the problem.

[Amy]

As it happens, I believe that most people (Christian, Muslim and non-religious) have a broad agreement on what kinds of interpersonal behavior are right and wrong, based on the ethic of reciprocity. I think the differences between Christianity and Islam are mostly on doctrinal matters, like where to pray, how to pray, what spiritual beliefs to have, etc.

I tend to believe based on the pivotal teachings of both belief systems that the differences run deeper than that. Even the standards of acceptability differ, so the two don't always mix if we stick to the elementary teachings of both religions. The prime example that aptly delineates the varied standards will be the concept of marriage in both religions. While Christianity sanctions Marriage as a sacred bond between ONE man and ONE woman, Islam permits a man to have as many as 4 LEGAL WIVES according to surah 4:3. If that fundamental difference is not sufficient proof of the radical difference in outlook that has the potential of igniting serious problems for couples from the two religious traditions, I wonder what could be more disparate.

A typical Christian will consider it immoral for her husband to bring other wives into their matrimonial home while the Muslim spouse will view it as standard practice, so marriage between two such individuals can be accident prone. Granted that there are Muslim men that by choice commit themselves to just one wife, it is difficult to tell from the start that the guy's vow to remain loyal to only one wife will not change when the storms of life arrive. e,g. childlessness! I personally think it is risky to toss out the fundamental differences that an aspiring so called Christian wishes to ignore in the bid to marry a Muslim for whatever reasons.

In fact, I think it is possible that a non-religious person could marry someone with a strong religious belief and the marriage could work. The proviso is that the non-believer should still be someone with a high ethical standard, and she should love the believer enough to respect his belief and even support him as he follows his faith. After all, we all take an active interest in the affairs of our loved ones, even though we may not participate in those affairs ourselves.

That it is possible under the conditions you have delineated goes without mentioning, however, it all depends on the authenticity of the religious party's devotion to Christian doctrines, for instance. If we are talking about a true believer in the teachings of Christ, then the internal conflicts and deep-seated sense of guilt that could stem from the commission of a deliberate act of wrongdoing in not heeding the bible teaching that prescribes that a christian should marry "only in the Lord" I corn7:39 may constitute an appreciable level of discontent in the marriage. I will personally hate to constantly feel I am living in disobedience to the teachings of the Master by binding myself in marriage to an unbeliever.

Furthermore, even if the unbelieving party is so special that he/she is willing to support the believing wife, I don't envisage that I will personally derive any joy from knowing that my best friend and husband is merely tolerating my beliefs, given the fact that deep down he will rather not hear the name of Christ mentioned around him. I like keeping it real and I see the scenario you painting turning me into a thoroughly depressed and melancholic wife because the joy of living with a true soul mate would have been taken from my heart.

I have friends and associates that are atheists and of other faiths. We flow remarkably well because I do not have to internalize our ideological differences or intellectual exchanges. I respect their personal persuasions just as they respect mine and we just get along on that impersonal level. When we are discussing marriage, I think it is the deepest level of union/intimacy possible and I personally don't think I will flow with someone that I know does not care for the spiritual precepts that mean everything to me. I will be living a lie to say I will marry a non-believer, no matter his uniqueness and level of maturity. If I am married to an individual I want to bond with the person first and foremost- spiritually, intellectually and emotionally, in that order. Anything short of that will constitute thorough vexation of spirit for me. I speak only for myself though.

As to raising children, the believer could take them to his place of worship if he wanted, and the non-believer could simply put her point of view to the child and stress that it is just her point of view. As to raising the child, if as I said the non-believer has a strong sense of ethics, I can't really see the problem.

Perhaps this whole discussion really brings to the fore what one considers as spirituality as opposed to mere religiosity. I tend to prefer the former and know that it is superior to merely going through the motions of attending a church service on Sundays or celebrating one set of religious holidays as opposed to another. Those are outward observances that really do not run that deep and if one party's claims to religiosity is on that outward level, then by all means, it will be no struggle living happily ever after with a decent 'moralistic' non-believer.

However, if the believing party's concept of spirituality involves a stubborn adherence to the teachings of the Master as a way of life on a per minute basis, then it will be difficult not to feel an emptiness and lack of fulfillment in having to be the only one admonishing the children in the ways of God.

Besides, you talked about both parents contributing in teaching morals to the kids. Well, I tend to see a potential source of confusion in one parent hinging moral instructions on the existence of a Supreme entity that has authorized a given set of laws and has the ability to reward the faithful while deploying punishment on offenders, while the other parent comes along and insists that morality is a matter of pragmatic reality and one does not necessarily need God to explain our perception of right and wrong. For older kids, such conflicting notions may be a welcome spiritual adventure but I tend to think it could confuse younger kids and perhaps compel them to doubt from an early stage in life rather than belief.

In the end, it is all about the believing party's level of spirituality. If the individual's faith is weak and she is really not interested in adhering strictly to the bible rules, for instance, then a decent unbeliever could very well be a fulfillment of her dreams. However, if she is seriously committed to the dictates of Christ, for instance, internal conflicts will trail such an individual for a long long time because it will be near impossible to truly feel like your unbelieving spouse is in every sense- the flesh of your flesh and the bone of your bone since both of you have no binding ties on a deep spiritual level. I think it is really all about depth. The deeper a believer is to the core teachings of Christianity, for instance, the more unlikely it is that such an individual will feel completely fulfilled in a mixed religious marriage with a person of no faith or a conflicting faith. To me, the very notion of mixed religious marriage is stress-inducing and life is too short for all that. It better suits individuals that are not that seriously committed to any faith in particular.

Later o.

[No Smoking]

I don't subscribe to people of different faiths getting married,there are the kids to consider,that being said,hmmm,there are other things to take into pesperctive,both parties involved, do they respect each-other's beliefs?,not with outsiders telling them what to do.

One more thing, if the boy or girl did not meet anyone they are compatible with,or the girl's time clock is running out, no boyfriend at 40, someone comes along, that you reallly,really liked, educated, good manners, loves you, and what she aspires for in a partner, you will not do because of a different faith, i beg make una answer my question, cos there is someone in that shoes now, she played ball.

Desperation should not be allowed to overthrow sound judgment. Neither marriage nor parenthood is a mark of a successful and/or satisfactory life. For any christian geeting into a panic over their clock running out, please remember the saying: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In ALL your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your path".

[Exxcuzme]

When most people in Nigeria had food to eat, there was religion tolerant and you can see, especially in the SW people of different faith intermarrying successfully. Nowadays, as Fela would sing "Everything is Upside down!". There is no tolerance anymore. People of become fanatics...with no common sense.

[Anike]

I don't think it's safe for people enthusiastic about different religions to marry each other, just as I would not expect people with two opposing views on certain vital issues to inter-marry.

That being said, what matters to me is that the other party is Godly. I actually can't see myself being married to a person that is too religious (I don't wanna use the word fanatic), be it a Christian or a Muslim. Godliness I can't compromise.

BTW:
Has the Bible a position on polygamy? Also, I am always very curious about the reference to nonChristians as unbelievers by Christians. Unbelievers of/in what?

[Alexa]

Amy,I love your take on the matter.
Mixed religious marriages in Nigeria still have a long way to go.Personally,I won't marry someone who does not have Christ in his heart as his savior.What freaks people about me is not my christianity but my parents religion.I have become so relaxed about it that it doesn't even bother me anymore.For those who are christians(walking in Christ),there's no way you can be comfortable marrying an unbeliever except you have completely shut your mind to God's word.Two shouldn't walk together except they agree.The most important agreement should should be the spiritual agreement.It's suprising how much people downplay the importance of religion in a marriage.

[lionking]

I'm very surprised to read DW and Overload posts above.

@DW

I am really surprised that these 2 girls were that particularly about whether or not you were catholic in 2007. Most Igbo girls I know are really not that particular abt the inter-denominational thing. I have various friends and relatives who are married anglican and married to catholics and vice versa (I use Anglican and Catholic becos there are the 2 orthodox christian sects that I am most familiar with)..

Maybe these girls have to been exposed by knowing others that inter-married or maybe they are very young..

@Overload

i guess its different strokes and all. becos I am of the extreme view to yours. IMHO, inter-ethnic marriages.. so very easy relative to inter -religious ones for me.. having said that, maybe it does depend on what ethnic group one is from in 9ja.. I would go as far as hazard a guess that if one is from an ethnic group with mixed religions.. muslims, christians etc.. chances are that its pretty common to have mixed religions in one family so as a christian marrying a muslim or vice versa.. of the same ethnicity, no problem since you may have cousins, aunts, uncles etc that are muslims.. but I would say for me, since I dont personally know any Igbo muslims (i have heard that there are a few.. but I dont know them), the chances are that if i marry a muslim, he would also be non-igbo..

My $0.2
CB

@ CB

Most Igbo girls in diaspora may no longer be so particular about non-Catholic men because the harsh reality is that their options are limited compared with their Igbo sisters at home in naija. Come visit Igboland of today and you'll discover the age-old prejudice is still very much alive. Its a bit better in Lagos and Abuja and a lot also depends on the socio-economic strata of the families involved. But in general back in the East, the Catholic church is still doing its best to indoctrinate its adherents against marrying outside their church or even having anything to do with a non-Catholic. Not even to socialize. Even in politics it is there - Catholic vs Anglican is a major factor in Anambra politics for example.

I can tell you so many stories of experiences of friends of mine with Catholic ladies. Where do I start? With the one whose parents dragged him to the Catholic bishop to swear oath and sign undertaking that he would convert and agree to raise the yet unborn kids in the Catholic church before they would consent to his marying their daughter? Or the one that his mother-in-law would visit his house and be praying loudly for the souls of her 'pagan' grandchildren and 'pagan' SIL who attend Anglican church?

Or do I tell you how Catholic priests and parish leaders blackmail elderly women not to allow their daughters marry non-Catholics by excommunicating the women from Legion of Mary or any other of those their Catholic women's associations? In my town, you'll will see Catholic parents going on their knees to beg their daughters not to disgrace them by marrying non-Catholic. The parents are terrified of being expelled from their church societies and being denied honours in the church for allowing their daughter to be taken from the fold by 'pagans'.

The problem in Igboland is with the Catholic church in particular. They go to all lengths to discourage their adherents from marrying Protestants. They will insist that the couple must pledge to raise the kids as Catholics whether or not the man is Protestant. They will even insist that the man should convert to Catholic as the price of marrying his love. None of the Protestant churches do this - only the Catholics.

[No Smoking]

............
..............
BTW:
Has the Bible a position on polygamy? ........

This Bible reference does not favor polygamy.

[Alexa]

No Smoking,it's not true that protestants don't do this.They do especially when it comes to marrying a catholic.The christians who intermarry with little difficulty are those in the pentecostal denominations.

[Amy]

I fail to see the substantive value of evoking the concept of religious tolerance in a discussion about mixed religious marriage choices and the potential spiritual dilemma that could come about as a result of bonding with someone that is unfavorably disposed to one's spiritual values.

By all means every rational person should endorse religious tolerance/diversity and welcome inter-faith understanding as an imperative on a general level. However, when we are talking about the spiritual bond between married couples, I see no sense in tolerating your spouse's convictions for the rest of your life if spiritual bonding is of optimal importance to you. It's about being in balance and catering to your mental health really!

Besides, there is nothing fanatical about having the presence of mind to pick a partner that will encourage the level of spiritual balance that you desire in your personal life and marriage. I call that common sense or practical wisdom!

Tolerating different faiths on a regular day is not nearly on the same par as tolerating your spouse's spirituality or lack of the same for the rest of your lives on this side of eternity. The reason for that is simple- more often than not a spiritual person's general outlook on life is informed by his/her belief system and it will be self-defeating, if not crippling, to ignore that vital factor when choosing a marriage partner. Same way a non-religious person's lack of attachment to any given set of religious values will reflect on such an individual's perspective on life's issues. It stands reason, therefore, for singles to properly assess the issue of spiritual compatibility before taking the leap of faith into matrimony.

Forever sounds like a pretty longgggggg time to be tolerating each other's divergent beliefs, lifestyles and practices. What's the point of all the stress anywaz?

@ Anike:

Polygamy is prohibited in the teachings of Christ. Matthew 19:4. God's original purpose was a union between one male(Adam) and one female(eve). Marriage was from the beginning God's idea and it is fundamentally a covenantal agreement between TWO partners for life.

Believers and unbelievers are the only two classes of people recognized in the new testament. The former refers to those who have repented of their sins and are consciously living according to the dictates of Christ. The later group consists of everyone else. References can be found in 2 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 7:14. My perspective as iterated on this thread is taken from the Christian perspective, so my reference to believers and unbelievers is from that vantage point. I guess a Muslim could press the same argument based on Islamic teachings. Each to his own, I guess.

Later o.

[Tola Odejayi]

I tend to believe based on the pivotal teachings of both belief systems that the differences run deeper than that. Even the standards of acceptability differ, so the two don't always mix if we stick to the elementary teachings of both religions. The prime example that aptly delineates the varied standards will be the concept of marriage in both religions. While Christianity sanctions Marriage as a sacred bond between ONE man and ONE woman, Islam permits a man to have as many as 4 LEGAL WIVES according to surah 4:3. If that fundamental difference is not sufficient proof of the radical difference in outlook that has the potential of igniting serious problems for couples from the two religious traditions, I wonder what could be more disparate.

Fair enough - but I did say 'broad agreement'. I can quote many examples where both Christianity and Islam do agree on how their adherents should relate to other people (do not steal, do not lie, do not commit adultery, etc.) - but let's not turn this thread into a debate on comparative religion.

However, I do understand that a Christian woman would have more of a guarantee of her husband not getting a second wife if his faith frowned upon such (even if he desired to do so, he might not want to face the wrath of God and the ostracism of his fellow believers)

That it is possible under the conditions you have delineated goes without mentioning, however, it all depends on the authenticity of the religious party's devotion to Christian doctrines, for instance. If we are talking about a true believer in the teachings of Christ, then the internal conflicts and deep-seated sense of guilt that could stem from the commission of a deliberate act of wrongdoing in not heeding the bible teaching that prescribes that a christian should marry "only in the Lord" I corn7:39 may constitute an appreciable level of discontent in the marriage. I will personally hate to constantly feel I am living in disobedience to the teachings of the Master by binding myself in marriage to an unbeliever.

Of course, we can argue as to whether that scripture is a commandment or a recommendation. The question is, why does it recommend this? I imagine that it would be recommended because of the desire not to see the Christian's spiritual life suffer by being 'unevenly yoked'. But as I said, if the unbelieving spouse actually does support the Christian in her spiritual life, surely there isn't a problem (unless you believe it is a commandment).

Furthermore, even if the unbelieving party is so special that he/she is willing to support the believing wife, I don't envisage that I will personally derive any joy from knowing that my best friend and husband is merely tolerating my beliefs, given the fact that deep down he will rather not hear the name of Christ mentioned around him. I like keeping it real and I see the scenario you painting turning me into a thoroughly depressed and melancholic wife because the joy of living with a true soul mate would have been taken from my heart.

I have friends and associates that are atheists and of other faiths. We flow remarkably well because I do not have to internalize our ideological differences or intellectual exchanges. I respect their personal persuasions just as they respect mine and we just get along on that impersonal level. When we are discussing marriage, I think it is the deepest level of union/intimacy possible and I personally don't think I will flow with someone that I know does not care for the spiritual precepts that mean everything to me. I will be living a lie to say I will marry a non-believer, no matter his uniqueness and level of maturity. If I am married to an individual I want to bond with the person first and foremost- spiritually, intellectually and emotionally, in that order. Anything short of that will constitute thorough vexation of spirit for me. I speak only for myself though.

Well Amy, the reality is that there are no two people on earth who are so identical that they share exactly the same beliefs, world views, prejudices, preferences, etc. This means there will always be the need for tolerance, as there will always be some aspects of a spouse that the other spouse may not like or agree with. However, the overriding thought in the tolerating spouse's mind should be "It makes her so happy to do this or say that, and I like seeing my spouse happy, so I'm happy to see her say this or do that".

In other words, the unbelieving spouse will be happy for the believing spouse to mention the name of Christ because he can see what it means to her and how happy it makes her. But of course, while this may work for some, it may not work for others - perhaps there are some who would also want the unbelieving spouse to feel the same kind of joy that they feel when they mention the name of Christ.

Besides, you talked about both parents contributing in teaching morals to the kids. Well, I tend to see a potential source of confusion in one parent hinging moral instructions on the existence of a Supreme entity that has authorized a given set of laws and has the ability to reward the faithful while deploying punishment on offenders, while the other parent comes along and insists that morality is a matter of pragmatic reality and one does not necessarily need God to explain our perception of right and wrong. For older kids, such conflicting notions may be a welcome spiritual adventure but I tend to think it could confuse younger kids and perhaps compel them to doubt from an early stage in life rather than belief.

Well, I don't believe that it will necessarily confuse children to have each parent explain what their different world beliefs are. I think it depends on whether both parents consider the issue a battleground where they are fighting for the minds of their children (which is what you imply when you talk about the unbeliever "insisting"), or whether they simply stated what they believed and left the child to make up his mind. The bigger issue is whether the parent's beliefs are so different that it creates problems when deciding what exactly the child's behaviour should be, i.e. is allowed to do and not to do. As I said before, if the unbeliever has a high ethical standard, there may not be that much of a problem. But I understand that this arrangement may not be comfortable with believing spouses who want a united front when bringing up their children.

If [an individual] is seriously committed to the dictates of Christ, for instance, internal conflicts will trail such an individual for a long long time because it will be near impossible to truly feel like your unbelieving spouse is in every sense- the flesh of your flesh and the bone of your bone since both of you have no binding ties on a deep spiritual level.

The bolded bit puzzled me - this may well be true, but is it sinful to feel this way? Or do you believe that it will make the believer unhappy in the marriage?



Anike,

I'm curious - when does someone cross over from being 'godly' to being 'fanatical'? Please enlighten this unbeliever.

[Soul Sista]

I fail to see the substantive value of evoking the concept of religious tolerance in a discussion about mixed religious marriage choices and the potential spiritual dilemma that could come about as a result of bonding with someone that is unfavorably disposed to one's spiritual values.

By all means every rational person should endorse religious tolerance/diversity and welcome inter-faith understanding as an imperative on a general level. However, when we are talking about the spiritual bond between married couples, I see no sense in tolerating your spouse's convictions for the rest of your life if spiritual bonding is of optimal importance to you. It's about being in balance and catering to your mental health really!

Besides, there is nothing fanatical about having the presence of mind to pick a partner that will encourage the level of spiritual balance that you desire in your personal life and marriage. I call that common sense or practical wisdom!

Tolerating different faiths on a regular day is not nearly on the same par as tolerating your spouse's spirituality or lack of the same for the rest of your lives on this side of eternity. The reason for that is simple- more often than not a spiritual person's general outlook on life is informed by his/her belief system and it will be self-defeating, if not crippling, to ignore that vital factor when choosing a marriage partner. Same way a non-religious person's lack of attachment to any given set of religious values will reflect on such an individual's perspective on life's issues. It stands reason, therefore, for singles to properly assess the issue of spiritual compatibility before taking the leap of faith into matrimony.

Forever sounds like a pretty longgggggg time to be tolerating each other's divergent beliefs, lifestyles and practices. What's the point of all the stress anywaz?

@ Anike:

Polygamy is prohibited in the teachings of Christ. Matthew 19:4. God's original purpose was a union between one male(Adam) and one female(eve). Marriage was from the beginning God's idea and it is fundamentally a covenantal agreement between TWO partners for life.

Believers and unbelievers are the only two classes of people recognized in the new testament. The former refers to those who have repented of their sins and are consciously living according to the dictates of Christ. The later group consists of everyone else. References can be found in 2 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 7:14. My perspective as iterated on this thread is taken from the Christian perspective, so my reference to believers and unbelievers is from that vantage point. I guess a Muslim could press the same argument based on Islamic teachings. Each to his own, I guess.

Later o.

Amy:

In an earlier post, you stated that you spoke for yourself. Well, you speak for me as well. Thanks for putting these our views across so clearly, succintly, and without the least offence.

I have heard the religious tolerance point of view many times in discussions of this issue with friends. I don't see why I should tolerate such a fundamental difference in my spouse. There is no yoking together that is greater than the yoke of marriage. Why would I want to tolerate such a divergence in something that is so fundamental to me? In marriage, the two shall become one . . . in everything. It is a completely different thing with ordinary or even close friends, colleagues and people that do not share the level of intimacy and companionship that a husband and wife have.

My 2Cents.

Oh Baby:

I know someone who refused to date a person who would otherwise have fulfilled all her criteria because he was not of the same religion. She was 35 at the time. It was painful but she is happy that she made the right choice.

I believe that with God all things are possible. I also believe that delayed marriage is not denied marriage. Therefore, age ain't nothing but a number. So, I won't advise any friend of mine to allow the fear of lonliness or the biological clock to cause her to ignore this, in my opinion, fundamental issue in marriage. The worst thing is to wait so long to get married only to realize that you have jumped from the society's frying pan to a private fire in your home.

Of course, I won't impose my view on anyone, friend or foe. I think it depends on the individual and commitment to the religion.


Soul Sista a/k/a Soul Sizzling

[Tola Odejayi]

Amy,

I just saw this in one of your previous posts:

Besides, there is nothing fanatical about having the presence of mind to pick a partner that will encourage the level of spiritual balance that you desire in your personal life and marriage. I call that common sense or practical wisdom!

Even though my hypothetical non-believer might attempt to offer such encouragement, the reality is that such encouragement won't be as effective as the encouragement offered by the believer. This is because the believer's knowledge would be backed up by experience living the faith and knowledge of the faith.

So I guess that iron really should be left to sharpen iron.

[naijafulani]

Some can't live with mixed religious marriages, others can. When a sophisticated lady meets an equally sophisticated man, sometimes religion becomes less important.My friend is married to a Christian woman, and he is Muslim. The union is one of the most beautiful I have ever seen. The guys are growing up to be Muslims and the gals Christians.I am not sure it matters when you love your girlfriend beyond religion.I do know that's not the case in other people's reality, many just can't compromise their faith, it is what they are. I think that equally makes sense, it balls down to how far can you go for the other person.

[Fjord]

In fact, I think it is possible that a non-religious person could marry someone with a strong religious belief and the marriage could work. The proviso is that the non-believer should still be someone with a high ethical standard, and she should love the believer enough to respect his belief and even support him as he follows his faith. After all, we all take an active interest in the affairs of our loved ones, even though we may not participate in those affairs ourselves.

As to raising children, the believer could take them to his place of worship if he wanted, and the non-believer could simply put her point of view to the child and stress that it is just her point of view. As to raising the child, if as I said the non-believer has a strong sense of ethics, I can't really see the problem.

Shoko,

this description, in general, fits the many examples of marriages like this that have worked, and are working. What makes what you describe above uncommon is that the disposition requires people of more than average general and emotional experience; usually, these are also the sort of people who wouldn't get married in the circumstances in the first place. One addition: the believer would need to not make a duty to convert the non-believer; this takes a certain 'sophistication' in a believer, since many believers are known to consider those who don't share their faith as being of an 'outside group', meaning, essentially: 'I am right, you are wrong; ultimately, you'll be dead'.
.

[Anike]

Believers and unbelievers are the only two classes of people recognized in the new testament. The former refers to those who have repented of their sins and are consciously living according to the dictates of Christ. The later group consists of everyone else. References can be found in 2 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 7:14.

Amy,

So, if a nonChristian lives a life that happens to be in accordance with the dictates of Christ, would s/he still be an unbeliever?

Anike,

I'm curious - when does someone cross over from being 'godly' to being 'fanatical'? Please enlighten this unbeliever.

SLB,

When a person's focus shifts from pleasing God to demanding that everyone else please God his own way, I think the person is leaning towards extremism.

Godliness:

Doing things that will please God/being committed to pleasing God at all times. I think loving everyone around you just as much as you do yourself is the root of all that God asks of us, and if you love God, you'd do what he asks. I think if/when you love other people, all the commandments as taught by religion will be second nature.

Fanaticism:

[Religious] arrogance. When religion becomes more important than Godliness. A form of idolatry, imo. "If you don't serve God the way I do, then you are serving a mini-god. Your righteousness is equivalent to my unrighteousness. If you were [un]fortunate to be born into a Muslim, an Eckankar, a .... home, you have to convert to my religion before you have a right to call yourself a child of God." To me, at the root of these sentiments is a desire to commandeer others' minds. A power struggle, if you will. At times, some people actually refuse to treat other people with love, under the guise that those people are not of the same religion as they are. These people, imo, are fanatics.


No Smoking and Amy
Re: Christianity and Polygamy.

Thanks. I have heard the story of King Solomon and his numerous wives, and how he was/is greatly favored in God's eye. Confusing!! What is the spiritual significance of being married to one or more people. I am averse to it, but I really don't know how polygamy takes away from a person's spirituality, granted that everyone involved is okay with it.
My .5 pence.

[Amy]

Amy,

I just saw this in one of your previous posts:



Even though my hypothetical non-believer might attempt to offer such encouragement, the reality is that such encouragement won't be as effective as the encouragement offered by the believer. This is because the believer's knowledge would be backed up by experience living the faith and knowledge of the faith.

So I guess that iron really should be left to sharpen iron.

Bull's eye, Bros mi...!

The highlighted line sums it all up succinctly.

By the way, for a self-professing unbeliever, you seem to know quite a few verses of scripture. I guess useful insights can be gained from wise sayings regardless of their origins. I enjoy reading Buddhist literature for the same reason.

Later o!

@ Anike,

The laws of God were seriously abused in the old testament dispensation. Christ came to correct that and his injunction is one man/one wife and no more! Christianity is fundamentally hinged on the tenets of faith as presented by Christ in the new testament.

Hope that helps a little. Take care.

[Anike]

Christ came to correct that and his injunction is one man/one wife and no more! Christianity is fundamentally hinged on the tenets of faith as presented by Christ in the new testament.

Hope that helps a little. Take care.

Thanks Amy.

The word of God is unchanging. God is unchanging. If Solomon was held in high esteem by God BC, I think a Solomon after the birth of Christ would have still been held in high regard. If Solomon was one of those who abused the laws of God, I wonder on what grounds he became highly favored above others.

The laws of God were seriously abused in the old testament dispensation.

Would it then be right to say that, before the birth of Christ, not everyone who lived did so in sin? However, because a large percentage of people did, Christ came to be a living example of how to live. Would this not mean that if a person walks in this path without necessarily falling under the religious label Christianity, s/he is considered by God to be righteous?

I once asked my sister this question, and here is her answer "It is important to fellowship with people who share your belief to encourage yourselves to continue to walk in the light". I agree with this, but I wish she'd understand that that exactly is my point. Religion is really a social thing that is not necessarily bad if people will just stop imposing their religious group on others. This, I think, is why, even in the Christendom, we have several groups competing for dominance.

Folks in a church don't always have a common outlook on things, I don't think. Several times, I would complain about something my then pastor or a deacon[ess]/brother/sister in church did that I thought was wrong, and I would get a response similar to this "just do your part and let God be the judge". Why do we continue to fellowship with each other then because this, imo, defeats the "fellowshipping with co-believers" phrase?

When I was a Catholic, other Christians said I was not Christian enough. My church members said I had to bow to these images of heavenly people. My church's Father, when asked why, pretty much said I just had to do it because the doctrine says so. I did for a while, but I felt so guilty each time I did. When I became a Protestant, some other Christians thought I was too hip for a Christian. My aunt said that, as a Christian, I am not supposed to wear jewelries. I am supposed to cover my crown. When I asked her why she wears wrist watches... listen to this.. "she said it is not gold" (she is not stupid, she just knew she had no point on that score but still had to save face. I am sure had she worn a gold watch that day she'd have said "it's not leather"). That's when I knew she needed salvation more than I did. Overtime, I had had it and I just said "please, give me God and keep the rest".

Anyway,

O ye olohun.

SLB,

How does this relate to your question on intermarriages? Beats me! No vex. At least I stated my position before attempting to derail the thread.

[katampe]

What is the truth and who speaks it ? Everyone is marketing his/her own version of the truth. Only God knows what is right.But, isn't it right to at least ask questions? I think folks should bring up their kids to do just that and make up their minds and not pass their own version of truth from generation to generation.

Reading through this thread and the way folks speak with so much conviction on issues beyond everyone is amazing. It is just the way of the world, lies, and then damn lies!

[Fjord]

So, if a nonChristian lives a life that happens to be in accordance with the dictates of Christ, would s/he still be an unbeliever?

Exactly the sort of question that should expose fundamentalists of any hue, when the question is made a general one. It could get more interesting: "If a fellow who live sin North Korea and hasn't ever heard of Jesus the Christ but happens to live a life in accordance with the dictates of Christ..."

The answer's blowing in the wind, and God and Jesus the Christ are smiling too.

.

[No Smoking]

The word of God is unchanging. God is unchanging. If Solomon was held in high esteem by God BC, I think a Solomon after the birth of Christ would have still been held in high regard. If Solomon was one of those who abused the laws of God, I wonder on what grounds he became highly favored above others.

Solomon's life may have seemed to be so successful and enjoyable. But the guy himself described it this way in Eccl 2:7-11:

7 I bought male and female slaves and had other slaves who were born in my house. I also owned more herds and flocks than anyone in Jerusalem before me.

8 I amassed silver and gold for myself, and the treasure of kings and provinces. I acquired men and women singers, and a harem as well— the delights of the heart of man.

9 I became greater by far than anyone in Jerusalem before me. In all this my wisdom stayed with me.

10I denied myself nothing my eyes desired; I refused my heart no pleasure. My heart took delight in all my work, and this was the reward for all my labour.

11 Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done and what I had toiled to achieve, everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind; nothing was gained under the sun.