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nero africanus
Nov 22, 2008, 11:22 AM
i am interested in the reason for the relative underdevelopment of africa , so i want villagers to have the time to participate in poles which seeks to try to understna why we are underdeveloped. i have a few theories and reasons and i will share them here hoping that this little excercise will increase our understanding of the current status quo in africa.

1. there are no class structures - oone of the theories is that there are no class structures. this is true in a place like south eastern nigeria , it is also true in western nigeria where awo destroyed the power of the yoruba monarchs with mass and free education , but in the case of northern nigeria , the ruling class are still very powerful , and as such why is the north not very developed since they have a ruling class that actually drive development

2. the religion of africans is the problem - i have also heard that the reason why subsaharan african is doing poorly compared to north africa is as a result of the mono religious islamic states there. this theory purports thast there is something in islam, that encourages high productivity and as such islamic states would normally do better than xtian states. but there are a few subsaharan muslim states like mali and senegal they have not done wonderfully.

3. something is wrong with the mindset of africans - this theory basically asserts that the african is not a capitalist , he is not geared towards the accumulation of capital and as such development will not occur. but what about the igbo , giguyu, shona, or the ashanti

4. it is a classic failure of leadership - this theory is by far the most common, but how exactly can leadership fail in 50 countries?
5. the nation states are small and not viable - this theory which routinely compares africa with india, which is a little larger in population,
6. multiethnicity holds the states of africa back - another common cause
7. colonialism is the root cause
8. the ruling class are not interested in industrial growth
9. western interference is the cause of the underdevelopment

it is possible to select more than one choice, please do vote and let us have a healthy discussion on these

katampe
Nov 22, 2008, 11:49 AM
i voted on the issue of mindset;defined as "a habitual or characteristic mental attitude that determines how you will interpret and respond to situations." (ref:http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=mindset). Also defined as "a person's frame of reference that is fixed. A person can have a particular "mindset" that is so strong in a specific outlook that they do not see other perspectives, even though they might hear them and believe they have been given consideration. This prevents looking at new options in a realistic sense" (http://ag.arizona.edu/futures/home/glossary.html). Both definitions give a sense of my understanding of mindset.

We have a habitual frame of reference that is fixed. It is from this frame that we see our realities. Our sense of perception has been tuned to this frame.Wishes (we are wishful thinkers), not necessarily evidence.For example, if you say Nigeria is a rich country, let us consider rich countries in terms of the concrete evidence of riches, what makes them rich, a significant percentage of a well educated thinking population, the capital that exists in that country, its GNP or GDP. Not the potential please. We know for many Nigerians, our riches exist in the potential, meanwhile every country has the potential.

For instance, many years ago, Alberta , an oil producing province in Canada was in debt, its oil resources were hard to tap unless the price of oil in the market justified it.it took George Bush's reign to accomplish that potential, his reign saw the escalating price of oil, that justified oil production in a province that has oil sands. So in a sense, potential depends on world economic organization. Explained in another way, if Obama goes ahead and succeeds on America's dependence on oil, restructures the car industry, and there is a shift in oil consumption, what happens to Nigeria's oil potential?

The frame of reference is particularly important to me. How we interpret data and how we have come to understand the world. I wish we look at wealth in terms of what assets a normal westerner has, and that which an average Nigerian has. I believe until we understand ourselves relative to other people, then we can have a sense of where we are at, where we need to be at, and what we need to do to get there.

nero africanus
Nov 22, 2008, 12:01 PM
i voted on the issue of mindset.defined as a habitual or characteristic mental attitude that determines how you will interpret and respond to situations (ref:http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=mindset). also defined as a person's frame of reference that is fixed. A person can have a particular "mindset" that is so strong in a specific outlook that they do not see other perspectives, even though they might hear them and believe they have been given consideration. This prevents looking at new options in a realistic sense (http://ag.arizona.edu/futures/home/glossary.html). Both definitions give a sense of my understanding of mindset.

I think what we have refused to do is look at issues from a realistic sense. Based on what we see, i mean evidence, and not our wishes. For example, if you say Nigeria is a rich country, let us consider rich countries in terms of the concrete evidence of riches, what makes them rich, a significant percentage of a well educated thinking population, the capital that exists in that country, its GNP or GDP. Not the potential please. We know that potential sometimes depends on economics. For instance, many years ago, Alberta , an oil producing province in Canada was in debt, its oil resources were hard to tap unless the price of oil in the market justified it.it took George Bush's reign to accomplish that potential, his reign saw the escalating price of oil, that justified oil production in a province that has oil sands.

The frame of reference is particularly important to me. How we interpret data and how we have come to understand the world. I wish we look at wealth in terms of what assets a normal westerner has, and that wish an average Nigerian has. I believe until we understand ourselves relative to other people, then we can have a sense of where we are at, where we need to be at, and what we need to do to get there.





thanks katampe ,

however mindset is learned , isnt that the function of education and leadership , in other words the people are what their leaders have made of them.

when you say we have refused to look at stuff realistically are you referring to the ruling class or to nigerians in general?


when you refer to the mind set, does all have to have this mnd set or is t sufficient for the ruling class to have the mind set?

thank you for your reponse i look forward to your answer

katampe
Nov 22, 2008, 12:49 PM
Yes, mindset is a function of how you are socialized, cultural. Let us not forget the habitual, as in habit;let us not forget the frame of reference, as in worldview Habits can be unlearned, so in a sense mindset is learned.

But if we agree that sometimes we come to knowledge through unconscious learning, I mean reinforcements from society, the reward system, a feedback system for what is good and what is bad, then you get a sense of what I am saying.It forms the basis of received knowledge we acquire through passive learning, not critical.

So in a sense, even when old, we are still passive observers, not critical thinkers. I guess your idea of leaders comes from this notion, an uncritical pattern of terms associated with cultural learning. For example, I have not heard Obama or Clinton being referred to as leaders. Neither have I heard, Abraham Lincoln referred to as one. In the west, it seems inappropriate, but why should Nigerians be looked upon as babies?or as people that cannot be responsible, or held to account?

The Obamas, Clintons and Lincolns are instead looked upon as purveyors of ideas that represent a moment. It explains the reason you have Reaganomics, and the reason why you have the idea of team of rivals associated with Lincoln.They evoke people as originators ideas not leaders.

I am not sure I subscribe to the notion of leaders. For me it is an uncritical use of language. The idea that we are a band of native tribes that must be fed, nurtured and groomed by a special breed of people called leaders.

So you see, that is the frame of reference I speak about. An irony you exhibited that pattern of thinking right of the bat in your engagement of my thesis.

Think about it, not defensively, in a manner that we can explore without ego or bitterness, but in the harsh reality of intellectual pursuit.

*Nero, edited what you quoted above.



thanks katampe ,


however mindset is learned , isnt that the function of education and leadership , in other words the people are what their leaders have made of them. when you say we have refused to look at stuff realistically are you referring to the ruling class or to nigerians in general?


when you refer to the mind set, does all have to have this mnd set or is t sufficient for the ruling class to have the mind set?

thank you for your reponse i look forward to your answer

nero africanus
Nov 22, 2008, 02:22 PM
So in a sense, even when old, we are still passive observers, not critical thinkers. I guess your idea of leaders comes from this notion, an uncritical pattern of terms associated with cultural learning. For example, I have not heard Obama or Clinton being referred to as leaders. Neither have I heard, Abraham Lincoln referred to as one. In the west, it seems inappropriate, but why should Nigerians be looked upon as babies?or as people that cannot be responsible, or held to account?



katampe ,

i read this a number of times trying to figure out the implied. i have heard the arrogant , self delusional term "leader of the free world" applied to the president of the united states, the british prime minister is the head of his political party,

we should stay away from semantics , a person in charge is a leader, the fact that leaders are not words used in the western context is not any reason to make its usage invalid or questionable.

a so called democratically elected leader in an ideal world has the mandate of his people to lead them so in this context he leads them , the fact that this usage is not common in the west is no reason for africans to adopt pretentious language that is not fully expressive. the implication that nigerians are babies by implication for refering to those who lead them as leaders is ridiculous. every society , including the so called leaderless igbo village republics had leaders , the igbo communities allowed the oldest man in the assembly to act as moderator and the summarise the various inputs of the people during deliberation , in this capacity he is a leader albeit with reduced power as compared to the oba of benin that the same time.

is your last sentence implying that the people be held responsible for the actions of those that lead them?


The Obamas, Clintons and Lincolns are instead looked upon as purveyors of ideas that represent a moment. It explains the reason you have Reaganomics, and the reason why you have the idea of team of rivals associated with Lincoln.They evoke people as originators ideas not leaders.



reaganomics does it refer to a set of political and economic viewpoints which was associated with the presidency of president reagan, how many of those views referred to as reaganomics did he even understand ( have you read his biography) much more originate. these people rather than being orginators of ideas are figure heads and symbols of ideas , thats because theyt were leaders, who lead the people and country in the direction the those policies pointed.



I am not sure I subscribe to the notion of leaders. For me it is an uncritical use of language. The idea that we are a band of native tribes that must be fed, nurtured and groomed by a special breed of people called leaders.

i think the statement above is unfortunate , as i have explained, everything comprising of humans from families to councils to businesses have to have a leader someone has to head it , and the fact that
the west have refused to use to word leader to reduce the apparent reality of power does not reduce that power in any way.

even you know that no system can function without a leader or head , so even if we like lets called the leader of nigeria servant , or slave if you like , he is still a leader. i think we need to understand some of these structures and accept that we cant be defined by the west and not stick to their standards when there is nothing to gain.

a few other things , a band of native tribes , what are those?
i dont think there is any such thing as a band of native tribes , unless you are referring to an ethnic group with a lower level of technological advancement

the west does not have a monopoly on knowledge , i saw south ossetia and on the telly georgia during the war with russsia some of the villages were worse than my village in terms of poverty and technological advancement , yet at no time were they reffered as the ossetian tribe.

finally , do you take your queue from the west ? i think its a tragedy if you do ..

katampe
Nov 22, 2008, 03:29 PM
we should stay away from semantics , a person in charge is a leader, the fact that leaders are not words used in the western context is not any reason to make its usage invalid or questionable. Semantics is important, I think we should give it prominence, because we understand the world and it comes alive through words, and issues and ideas come alive through the meaning of those words.Usage gives an insight into culture, and enables us appreciate context and what we mean (something that changes as context changes). I guess that is why I give it prominence.

Being critical, also means interrogating meanings, usage and why in this specific case that it is observed more in Nigerian context than in western context.I think when we proceed from this aspect,we seek knowledge to further understand our psyche as a people.

my argument is the idea that in our own cultural context, a leader evokes all sort of associated meanings like subservience, deference, all knowing authourity, until we try to deconstruct in a critical fashion, we might miss opening up a whole slew of ingrained cultural pathologies.



a so called democratically elected leader in an ideal world has the mandate of his people to lead them so in this context he leads them , the fact that this usage is not common in the west is no reason for africans to adopt pretentious language that is not fully expressive. the implication that nigerians are babies by implication for refering to those who lead them as leaders is ridiculous. every society , including the so called leaderless igbo village republics had leaders , the igbo communities allowed the oldest man in the assembly to act as moderator and the summarise the various inputs of the people during deliberation , in this capacity he is a leader albeit with reduced power as compared to the oba of benin that the same time.see above.


is your last sentence implying that the people be held responsible for the actions of those that lead them?Not really. I am of the view that how we perceive leaders explains how we hold them accountable. The idea that ordinary beings are celebrated and made tin gods, to the extent they sense this importance and become dictators explain the sense I am trying to communicate.

For example, this idea of rankadede explains something, oga pata pata, they both communicate something. The idea that when a Yoruba man is in power, everyone dresses Yoruba; the idea that when an Hausa man is in power, everyone dresses like an Hausa person explains something else too.

So meanings, and perceptions give you a sense how people resolve issues.


reaganomics does it refer to a set of political and economic viewpoints which was associated with the presidency of president reagan, how many of those views referred to as reaganomics did he even understand ( have you read his biography) much more originate. these people rather than being orginators of ideas are figure heads and symbols of ideas , thats because theyt were leaders, who lead the people and country in the direction the those policies pointed.The issue is not how the idea originated, but rather how we come to perceive their era when we think about them. In terms of their economic policies and how it is styled and how that era is perceived.

nero africanus
Nov 22, 2008, 04:43 PM
Semantics is important, I think we should give it prominence, because we understand the world and it comes alive through words, and issues and ideas come alive through the meaning of those words.Usage gives an insight into culture, and enables us appreciate context and what we mean (something that changes as context changes). I guess that is why I give it prominence.
[QUOTE]

katampe,
i think i now fully appreciate what you are trying to say, but i would rather advocate pragmatism rahter than looking at words usage. the usage of words is nothing if these words decieve and do not accurately describe.
[QUOTE]

Being critical, also means interrogating meanings, usage and why in this specific case that it is observed more in Nigerian context than in western context.I think when we proceed from this aspect,we seek knowledge to further understand our psyche as a people.

my argument is the idea that in our own cultural context, a leader evokes all sort of associated meanings like subservience, deference, all knowing authourity, until we try to deconstruct in a critical fashion, we might miss opening up a whole slew of ingrained cultural pathologies.


i know absolutely what you mean here, but these things are cultural, the yorubas and hausas have more respect for constituted authority of whatever form , family head , gerontocratic elder, politician etc much more than the igbo will ever have. this is not necessarily bad in itself for if these people upon who this leadership lie choose to tske the part of development , moblisation of the masses will be easy, in yoruba land , there is talk of a common leader , something no one can even dare say in igboland . the point im trying to make here , is that in this lies some structural problems, unifying the igbo is almost impossible. whereas a common leader can rally the yoruba , and people are ready to carry out the emirs will unquestioningly.

however apart from the cultural aspect, there is the economic aspect. certain anomalies must exist in our level of development. the gate man depends solely on his oga for his working conditions and wages. he knows that he cannot get redress if he crosses his oga and he decides to deal with him , his survival insitinct tells him that ranka dede style veneration and massaging of his oga's ego might help him. the economy is bad and people have limited options , the local politicians runs a system of patronage , of rewarding those most loyal to him, how much you get depends on how " loyal" you are. this is the perfect recipe for sychophancy and "yes manism". if people had other options this will reduce so you are talking about a problem that development will solve as being part of the problem of why there is lack of development. it is like saying headache causes malaria , rather than that headache is a symphom of malaria. we must remember that these problems are not uncommon for countries in our stage in development




Not really. I am of the view that how we perceive leaders explains how we hold them accountable. The idea that ordinary beings are celebrated and made tin gods, to the extent they sense this importance and become dictators explain the sense I am trying to communicate.


i dont agree , you need to look at the power factor , the power equation and the power balance to tell how the masses will react. when the people feel that they dont have a personal stake in the country , they do nothing no matter what the government does.

this is why taxation for all production and productivity needs to occur before the govt become accountable , the govt in states like nigeria know this which is why they cannot undertake tax reform, less than 25 percent of nigerians pay taxes on income and other thing , do you think you can just squander this money if it were somebody's sweat. a few well fed people pay taxes the real hungry and angry who dwell in the informal sector dont , if they did the policitians will not be able to do some of the things that they do. dictators are common in states undergoing turmoil and where the state does not depend on the taxation of the masses to run the country.





For example, this idea of rankadede explains something, oga pata pata, they both communicate something. The idea that when a Yoruba man is in power, everyone dresses Yoruba; the idea that when an Hausa man is in power, everyone dresses like an Hausa person explains something else too.


i know what you mean here , but
this is sychophancy, and does not exist cos out head of state is called a leader , it exists because economic opportunity are lacking and the money to chop at the top is so much that becoming a minister is now like winning a jackpot




So meanings, and perceptions give you a sense how people resolve issues.

The issue is not how the idea originated, but rather how we come to perceive their era when we think about them. In terms of their economic policies and how it is styled and how that era is perceived.

what we are discussing at the moment seems to be a sympthom to me rather than the malaise , but there is no doubt in the validity of your statement of the existence of this problem in the first place ,

if people are well fed , the man next do you doesnt care who you are. if he isnt he becomes a sychophant hoping that some of the crumbs will get to him.

Auspicious
Nov 22, 2008, 05:46 PM
2 reasons I voted for:

1]. Classic failure of Leadership.

2]. Ruling Class NOT interested in Industrial Growth.

If I may state why the other options DO NOT matter in my opinion:

"Class Struture" is irrelevant because I don't see what its presence has to do with anything. If anything, the presence of class structure at all might be dentrimental to general development. This is not to mean government should be in the business of discouraging class structure - no, no, no! It is a fact that places in the world where government has tried enforcing a classless society hardly succeed because of the hypocrisy which George Orwll aptly captured in the phrase "All Animals are Equal, but some are More Equal than Others".

Religion has its problems but whatever problems it has is NOT unique to the African society. Religion plays a powerful role (if not a hypocritical role), for example, in American politics. Yet, it hardly stops those who matter in American politics from getting their priorities right in the governing process, even while one admits that it influences some of their decisions. The same goes for many places across the world. Saudi Arabia is a deeply religious nation and even though one can argue the homogeity of her religious state, she is nonetheless less backward and underdeveloped as Africa is. If anything, the State is developing.

The African Mindset? Err..yes and no, but more inclined towards a "no" than a "yes". No people are collectively stupid or collectively bright or are collectively warped or whatever. I wonder, even, if there is any such thing as an "African Mindset". But oftentimes, one is forced to wonder what the hell is wrong with the African - which is another story for another paragraph. The point is, any people are capable of turning their fortunes around if or when they choose to. The African has not yet risen to take her destiny in her hands, prefering to pursue individual prosperity than collective prosperity - waiting on his neighbor or some fake leader to stand and fight for him instead building a coalition to free themselves from the stanglehold of oppression and underdevelopment.

Size of the nations' got NADA to do with NADA.

The multiethnicity of Africa and her constituent nations, as with any other society in the World, is plus - a watershed to gain from than a burden. Multiethnic or multicultural societies the world over have always prospered far more than monolithic societies do. Is it in sports? Is it in Innovations? Is it Socially? You name it, the multicultural societies excels in it all. Unfortunately for Africa, everything she is blessed with has been exploited for negative intents; the African multiethnic/culture status has been used by Overlords (within and without) to sustain their institutions of brutality and exploitation for personal gain, by encouraging infraticide. The rest, as they say, is history.

Colonialism played a role, no doubt. But the role it played is diminished, if not extinguished, by the fact that others, too, were once coloninzed before they went on to become leading super-powers. Or what do we say about the South Koreas, the Malaysias and other Asian Tiger nations that were behind some countries in Africa in terms of development and exposure at the time when countries like Nigeria attained independence? Hmm? That's why I can't blame the African predicament on colonialism. Countries have been colonized the world over, yet many former colonies have eventually gone on to get their acts in other after kicking the colonists out of their societies.

Western Interference is ONLY possible with the aid and connivance of Africans themselves. The west interfere in Africa like they have interfered elsewhere across the world. Yet, these interferees(?) of these other societies hardly are in the kind of state that the African society are. How about that we, Africans, are willing victims? How about that we, Africans, were selling ourselves as slaves before Westerners arrived to cart us away like Beasts of Burden? How about that we hardly try to dream outside of our comforts. Oh wait, there we go: the mindset thinking. Hence why I said "yes" and "no" earlier. I don't know. But I can't in good conscience blame western influence for our problems without acknowledging the role WE play in enabling these influences.

I DO know - I know for a fact that WE Africans suffer more out of a deficiency of visionary leadership than anything else. Good leadership and the encouragement of same is the ultimate solution to most of the problems listed in the poll, hence my picking the two options listed at the start of my comments here. Hardly will you find anywhere in Africa where good leadership reigns - maybe a few, but the rest of Africa is plagued by a pathetic case of very poor leadership. Without good leadership, we cannot be inspired to resist negative "western inflluence" or "colomentalism" or exploitation of our "multiethnic" nature..etc. It all boils down to good leadership in my humble opinion.

But, what do I know? I am just another African, the son of forbears of slaves who refuses to blame others for the woes of my people and my society and who like other Africans is yeah, unforunately, focusing more on making something for himself than looking out for the overall good - call that a confessional if you will. Most of us are in other countries, escaped from the misery and the poverty and dysfunctionality of our heritage home countries to enjoy of the burden of others in their country where everything works like clock-work. In the meantime, we bemoan our lot from our comforts abroad while others continue to develop their own countries IN their own countries. Our destiny is in our hands, we only need tear ourselves away from our comfort to make things work.

Unfortunately, the journey has hardly begun.

Auspicious.

RAYNOSA
Nov 22, 2008, 05:54 PM
Behold ya African leaders
Behold ya African leaders
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f47/RAYNOSA1/sleepingleaders.jpg
When they were deliberating on energy and power, they were sleeping.


When they were deliberating on economic development, they were sleeping.
When they deliberated on food security, they were asleep.
When they fixed interest rate on debtor's (African) loans, they were asleep.
When they deliberated on conflict resolution through dialogue they were already snoring.
They only woke up to support motion for adjournment and signed the communiqué.

Of course!, they need rest, they worked tirelessly back home clamping down their opponents and critics.

They Spent the night strategising on the next move to subdue their opponents.


Back home airports were closed 2hrs before their arrival, motor-ways were blocked 1hr ahead, Armed Policemen stood guard 8hrs before arrival. Rented crowd clamored under sun to cheer them up, WHAT HAVE THEY BROUGHT HOME?


These idiots are incapable of staying awake for three hours at a meeting, and those are our leaders?!?!?!

Auspicious
Nov 22, 2008, 06:03 PM
I couldn't see Villager Ray's photos..

So I went and dug some out for your viewing.

Auspy.
http://bp2.blogger.com/_H6UauA86LqQ/Ro6LKNG2qLI/AAAAAAAAAAs/nB4TuKcaWUo/s320/african+leaders+sleep.jpg (http://bp2.blogger.com/_H6UauA86LqQ/Ro6LKNG2qLI/AAAAAAAAAAs/nB4TuKcaWUo/s1600-h/african+leaders+sleep.jpg)

http://bp1.blogger.com/_H6UauA86LqQ/Ro6LG9G2qKI/AAAAAAAAAAk/zzvdcXCnBA4/s320/mugabe+sleeping.jpg (http://bp1.blogger.com/_H6UauA86LqQ/Ro6LG9G2qKI/AAAAAAAAAAk/zzvdcXCnBA4/s1600-h/mugabe+sleeping.jpg)

katampe
Nov 22, 2008, 06:48 PM
katampe,
i think i now fully appreciate what you are trying to say, but i would rather advocate pragmatism rahter than looking at words usage. the usage of words is nothing if these words decieve and do not accurately describe. what i see in what you have written is the choice you have made about what is true, and how you have resolved to address an issue.But it shows ego, and the assumption that you have full facts of what is the truth. It is where I have issues with your argument, and your general interpretation of facts.

I have always had this belief, that conversation is a two way street.Until you have a common frame of reference, you would be speaking past each other.It is why Nigerians ought to seek to understand each other, the culture and environment where each person's worldview emerges from.

It helps give context, it is not for nothing that we keep talking about context, it lights up insight and gives sight where supposedly there would have been blindness.

For example, when you make the choice to proceed, on your own terms, and strictly on your own choices, you have refused to acknowledge how others think and the validity of their experience, and the idea that other truths exist.


i know absolutely what you mean here, but these things are cultural, the yorubas and hausas have more respect for constituted authority of whatever form , family head , gerontocratic elder, politician etc much more than the igbo will ever have. this is not necessarily bad in itself for if these people upon who this leadership lie choose to tske the part of development , moblisation of the masses will be easy, in yoruba land , there is talk of a common leader , something no one can even dare say in igboland . the point im trying to make here , is that in this lies some structural problems, unifying the igbo is almost impossible. whereas a common leader can rally the yoruba , and people are ready to carry out the emirs will unquestioningly. I digress, yes, there are good sides and there are bad sides. But the issue is how the mindset affects our development. In a globalizing world, where we have adopted systems that are western, how do we marry the system of rights with that of cultural entitlement of respect for elders? How do we accommodate other's cultural views, like the Igbos that are not exactly into this leadership business, but rather wish recognition on people that have distinguished themselves based on merit and visible achievements that are recognised in social and economic context.

But without the digression, the issue should not be about whether it is bad for the Yoruba's or Hausa's but what they mean when they invoke this idea of their leaders. It also means what the Igbo's mean or any other ethnic group mean. It helps set a context for understanding what each other's needs are, the cultural perspective each person is speaking from, and enables us better appreciate issues to enable us deal decisively with them.

That essentially is my argument. That you fail to appreciate this issue and rather make a choice about what your truth is, and without acknowleging others truth shows a fixed mindeset that is not open to other ideas. remember in the definition of mindset I supplied, it said " a person can have a particular "mindset" that is so strong in a specific outlook that they do not see other perspectives, even though they might hear them and believe they have been given consideration.

You see it is a notion about my way, or the highway. Nigerians (individuals) with this mindset go on to become leaders, and do we still wonder why people say we have no good leaders?

For example, there is a rethinking of education at the moment. The Wall Street debacle has introduced the debate about introducing classics into business schools. With globalization reaching a fever pitch, and individuals managing funds worth the whole economies of some small /poor countries, the question about schooling fund managers in morality and choices they need to make alongside business decisions has become necessary.

Remember in the society of old, ordinary individuals have sacrificed their lives for the society. Some lost the pleasure of women, the pleasure of family, or hedonistic pursuits to think about the greater good, or the public good. I think you get a glean of mindset from this argument.

Yet, what is most important is that attitude of the mind that people need to inculcate, remember you said mindset can be learned. In practical terms they have started putting it to good use, but this time for business leaders, or decision makers that are increasingly taking over the role and influence of national leaders.

So you see we have a pattern of madness amongst Wall Street folks, and the arguments that have ensued is returning to education. Introducing classics in business schools.

DeepThought
Nov 24, 2008, 01:17 AM
Why is Africa underdeveloped?

Wrong policies, wrong structure, lack of leadership, wrong education, lack o political will e.t.c.

Enjoy the below

http://www.inwent.org/E+Z/1997-2002/de102-6.htm


The industrial development policy pursued in most African countries after their decolonisation was billed as ‘catch-up industrialisation’. By that they did not mean catching up on the industrialised nations’ route to development, but rather emulating their level of development. The long and laborious path that had led to this level was to be leapfrogged at one bound. This strategy has failed




Like everywhere else in the world, there are also traditional indigenous industrial activities in African societies. During the colonial era these were impeded and suppressed in order to secure the markets of the colonial powers’ companies or those of the white settlers. Despite the restrictions and bans placed on them, the autochthonous (small) business activities always carried on

......This is where Aba made stems from

Industrialization has to come from within, supported by impetus from without.

But we tried:


Industrialisation from outside

The governments, their advisors and financiers pursued a different strategy. In the expectation that leapfrogging development by introducing state-of-the-art technology would have greater impacts than replicating the European path to it, they ensured that the most up-to-date production technologies were transferred to Africa from the industrialised nations. At the same time, the African governments created rules and regulations and promotion instruments which favoured and subsidised the import of everything new while discriminating, criminalising, and persecuting the existing autochthonous activities

Because:


The African leadership elites – in many cases alienated from their own culture and origins – simply could not imagine industrial development based on local tinkers, craftsmen and tradespeople.

Also:


In addition, at the beginning of national independence the African elites were penniless because they had no economic basis. The import of modern industrial plants and the kickbacks that went with them benefited both the socialist-oriented elites and the politicians in countries with market economies.

and so on..

chidi opara reports
Nov 24, 2008, 09:07 AM
Classical failure of leadership!

chaos.com
Nov 24, 2008, 10:21 AM
The mindset of africans in africa is the problem, because as soon as they are removed from that environment, they excel in all shapes and forms.
Most africans in europe and yankee are so hardworking, waking up early in the morning working 2 sometimes 3 jobs and taking care of business.
leadership is not the main problem even though it is a problem, but we are all leaders in our small little fields and if headmaster/ clerk is taking bribe, who are we to blame oga or politician?

As soon as they are back in africa, they lose all the will the work hard and start behaving like...........

nero africanus
Nov 24, 2008, 11:59 PM
from the polls so far , it looks like most agree that the mindset of africans is the problem .

if the mind set of africans is the problem, what is the reason for this mindset, is it bad leadership?

there is a saying that "a people are only what their leaders make of them".

in other words if the mindset of africans is the problem then it can be corrected with credible leadership.

can we then say that the problem is a classic failure of leadership which leads to this self defeating mindset

or is the mindset of africans that leads to the failure of leadership.

i do know that a series of bad decisions taken by top leadership or cluelessness can lead to events and processes that will affect generations to come.

case in point the standard of living in ghana in 1957 was much higher than that of south korea at the same time , today the two are not even comparable.

both had been colonised , ghana by the british , korea by the japanese .

what then went wrong ,

in the 70's the indonesians and malaysians took oil palm seedlings from nigeria , today nigeria imports palm oil from those places to meet domestic needs.

how come even with the oil revenue nigeria could not even produce enough oil palm to satisfy domestic demand ,

it means that somewhere along the line , some really bad decisions had been taken.

so does mindset lead to bad leadership or does bad leadership lead to mind set?

that is the question...............

nero africanus
Nov 25, 2008, 12:11 AM
The mindset of africans in africa is the problem, because as soon as they are removed from that environment, they excel in all shapes and forms.
Most africans in europe and yankee are so hardworking, waking up early in the morning working 2 sometimes 3 jobs and taking care of business.
leadership is not the main problem even though it is a problem, but we are all leaders in our small little fields and if headmaster/ clerk is taking bribe, who are we to blame oga or politician?

As soon as they are back in africa, they lose all the will the work hard and start behaving like...........


thanks chaos,

if your post is true then the average nigerian is a law abiding citizens who is very adaptable to the circumstance he finds himself , which means that the nigerian might queue up to get on the plane at heathrow airport, london , as soon as he reaches murtala muhammed airport, lagos , all hell breaks loose , he jumps the queue , he bribes , etc

does it mean that he just accepts that the rules here are different or does he do what he does cos he understands that he can jump the queue and get away with it with no personal consequences to himself.

in other words he is managing his risk , which is basically what all humans do.

in abuja i have seen western europeans drive in a manner that they will only dream of trying in their home countries , i have seen western europeans jump queues in the bid to enter airplanes in port harcourt , counting on the colonial mentality of the immigration official to see them through. i have also seen well travelled nigerians who understand that this aliens/foreigners are taking advantage of the corrupt system in place and there upon tore them apart with their tongues , enforcing justice with mob rule.

so from the western european who does things he will never try in this country in nigeria , to the law abiding nigerian who stands in queues in sweden only to jump queues , bribe, push and shove in lagos.

does it then mean that they are proving that "the first law under heaven is order".

they only do what they do cos they can get away with it?

DeepThought
Nov 25, 2008, 12:34 AM
so does mindset lead to bad leadership or does bad leadership lead to mind set?

that is the question...............

I'm not sure which came first but what I'm sure of is that we have both; and that these two evils are self reinforcing.

If I have to guess, I would say the bad mindset came first for the following reasons:

1. I sincerely believe the abstract always preceeds the physical, before you start seeing a bad leader or before you start seeing people behave badly, the mind must first have been destroyed.

2. . It is on record that Africans societies on after the other fell to the gun, so we know that at one time African leaders behaved like free men. That for me settles the question of leadership.
Once the original leadership that though and acted aright was gone, a new type of "leadership" one with a totally different and defeated mindset came into or was brought into being. That African leaders now behave like crazy psychopaths in modern times is no doubt the product of polluted minds.

Since "independence" there has been no concerted effort to train the Nigerian mind aright. We may think (as I used to) that a philosophy curriculum in the Universities is a waste of time but I have since come to learn otherwise. I now think the only thing worse than no philosophical education is a wrong philosophical education, the type that is typically taught in Nigerian universities. Ask yourself what the philosophy curriculum in Nigerian universities give pride of place? .

With the kind of liberal arts and social studies education we've been tormented with in Nigeria, its extremely hard not to be insane without even knowing it.

katampe
Nov 25, 2008, 12:38 AM
Nero,

you exhibit a narrow mindedness and absence of moral etiquette.don't make this a habit.you haven't shown open mindedness with the results of the poll.

you have sought to understand an issue, yet your ego comes in the way of using data objectively. Does it mean your nature of knowledge is fixed and not open to revision?

Stop this ridiculous sophistry, you are not dealing with kids here. If you seek to interrogate further, do you have to narrow it towards a particular direction? To make matters worse, you quote a flimsy saying to arrive at a conclusion.

Nna, stop this attitude.


from the polls so far , it looks like most agree that the mindset of africans is the problem .

if the mind set of africans is the problem, what is the reason for this mindset, is it bad leadership?

there is a saying that "a people are only what their leaders make of them".

in other words if the mindset of africans is the problem then it can be corrected with credible leadership.

can we then say that the problem is a classic failure of leadership which leads to this self defeating mindset

or is the mindset of africans that leads to the failure of leadership.

i do know that a series of bad decisions taken by top leadership or cluelessness can lead to events and processes that will affect generations to come.

case in point the standard of living in ghana in 1957 was much higher than that of south korea at the same time , today the two are not even comparable.

both had been colonised , ghana by the british , korea by the japanese .

what then went wrong ,

in the 70's the indonesians and malaysians took oil palm seedlings from nigeria , today nigeria imports palm oil from those places to meet domestic needs.

how come even with the oil revenue nigeria could not even produce enough oil palm to satisfy domestic demand ,

it means that somewhere along the line , some really bad decisions had been taken.

so does mindset lead to bad leadership or does bad leadership lead to mind set?

that is the question...............

Auspicious
Nov 25, 2008, 02:09 AM
Folks,

I am a little disturbed - for lack of a better description for how I feel - that most respondents here, themselves Africans, think there's something wrong with the African mindset. I wonder, with ALL DUE SINCERE RESPECT, if these same Africans who responded to that poll and voted to assert that there was something wrong with Africans' mindset, actually included themselves.

This is NOT to preach at anybody. It is just an attempt to understand the mind of the average voter whose vote supported the notion that there's something wrong with us. My thinking is this; if people who voted that there's something wrong with the mindset of Africans accept that they have the same issue, then there is hope that we would one day find a solution to our problems.

But, if not, wow...

This is AuspY.

DeepThought
Nov 25, 2008, 02:44 PM
with Africans' mindset, actually included themselves.

.Yes.. .

nero africanus
Nov 25, 2008, 02:48 PM
Nero,

you exhibit a narrow mindedness and absence of moral etiquette.don't make this a habit.you haven't shown open mindedness with the results of the poll.

you have sought to understand an issue, yet your ego comes in the way of using data objectively. Does it mean your nature of knowledge is fixed and not open to revision?

Stop this ridiculous sophistry, you are not dealing with kids here. If you seek to interrogate further, do you have to narrow it towards a particular direction? To make matters worse, you quote a flimsy saying to arrive at a conclusion.

Nna, stop this attitude.

wow katampe ,

something must have upset you badly, im wondering what it is

you used some words in ways that got me thoroughly confused

narrowmindedness and lack of moral etiquette. kai.

first of all what is lack of moral etiquette in this context ?

17 respondents voted for mindset of africans and bad leadership the most as the reason for africas underdevelopment , i try to see if these two are related.

you insist my ego prevents me from understanding and using the data when already i am working with the options the respondents voted for the most.

i seek to see if there is any relationship between mindset and bad leadership

and if you have anything to say , just say it

nero africanus
Nov 25, 2008, 03:17 PM
Folks,

I am a little disturbed - for lack of a better description for how I feel - that most respondents here, themselves Africans, think there's something wrong with the African mindset. I wonder, with ALL DUE SINCERE RESPECT, if these same Africans who responded to that poll and voted to assert that there was something wrong with Africans' mindset, actually included themselves.

This is NOT to preach at anybody. It is just an attempt to understand the mind of the average voter whose vote supported the notion that there's something wrong with us. My thinking is this; if people who voted that there's something wrong with the mindset of Africans accept that they have the same issue, then there is hope that we would one day find a solution to our problems.

But, if not, wow...

This is AuspY.

i will tell you a story auspy ,

for you to ponder upon , contemplate, then respond to

many years ago , i took a bus journey from enugu to cameroun , i was seating in the front of the bus and this driver played christian songs through out the long journey , i tried to get him to play something else , he started preaching to me about god and stuff.

i also noticed that he bribed the policemen at the check points on the journey.

i challenged him that he was breaking the law , he began to lecture me on the morality of obeying the law in a place like nigeria.

he told me he had 5 children and wanted the best for them , he said his papers wherre normally in order , but that the police tended to delay you if you dont give them bribe, whether or not your papers are in order. according to him , he needed to make the journey from enugu and back everyday to break even and provide for his family , now if he obeyed " the law" and not give a bribe, he may be delayed and end up not making the return trip to enugu that same day, he also told me that most of the time that the passengers forced him to give the police bribe in order that they not be delayed on their journey.

i asked him if his papers were in order , he said that they used to be that he paid all the taxes and everything but now he didnt cos he didnt see the point of putting his paper in order and still pay bribe to police for him it is either one or the other.

i told him he was breaking the law that as a born again christian , he should be able to stand for what is right. he told me that in onitsha a few weeks ago a driver who drove away from the "bribe delay " was shot by the police , he turned and asked me if i would raise his kids for him if he took the risk and got killed in the process ?

i said no but that god who he served would , he finished his conversation by telling me that no man had the right to tempt god and that heaven helped those who helped themselves

what i took away from this fellow is that if he was delayed by police he would lose half his income for the day as he would not be able to make the return trip.

because he paid bribe to police he as the born again christian he claimed to be did not see the reason " why he would give to ceasar what is ceasars and to god what is god's" in terms of paying taxes and other things that came with commercial transport

now this person does he have the right mindset?

if you are in his shoes what would you do ?

im sorry i know this is not a fair question

Felix
Nov 25, 2008, 04:07 PM
Isnt it strange that a group of Africans that wont tolorate any suggestion that cultural stagnation in our different hamlets somehow forms a prelude to the domestication of primitive politics in sub saharan Africa, will qiute gleefully accept that a general mental malaise is responsible for their socio-political woes??? :evil: What is the basis for this self depreciating conclusions? Does it entail that the failure of the African in the process of state modernisation can easilly be pinned down to his blunt nose,black skin and thick hair??? Or are you people suggesting that somehow during the cultural metamophorses that led to the emergence of different cultural groupings around the globe, the African went through some sort of epiphany after which he came out worse and so incapable of positive leadership???

If the 13 posters that voted for this option so far really chose the former , then it is obvious we need to run a background check on posters on topics like this to make sure that "foreigners or black men with white eyes" are restricted from posting...,if the reason for their choice is the later, then a deeper research of the history of socio-political evolution in sub saharan Africa needs to be made to point out those encounters that ruined the possibilities of the emergence of viable African states.., which means that to get a better result with our choices here, the options here may have to include variables like (a and b" or ( a, b, and c" ).....

Yet,If there is a third reason for thier choice , can some of those who beleive that our mindset is so polluted we cant acheive (but this same people wil want you to note that they achieve personally whereever they are)step forward and educate us on this becuase honestly, when I look at myself and Africans around me, I dont see a mental question that is so pronounced to mitigate against larger societal development! What I see is fake states(a problem not created by Africans), dorminated by fake leaders (a problem arising as a result of fake states)..,states that are begging for some sort of political reorganisation or social revolution (a problem and solution that has been witnessed elsewhere from Europe through America to Asia)and Africans are not mentally incapable of achieving those two with all things being equal...

DeepThought
Nov 26, 2008, 03:23 AM
can some of those who beleive that our mindset is so polluted we cant acheive (but this same people wil want you to note that they achieve personally whereever they are)step forward and educate us on this becuase honestly, when I look at myself and Africans around me, I dont see a mental question that is so pronounced to mitigate against larger societal development!


As someone who argues that intelligence is an integral part of the human, I beleive that the African mind comes into this world not deficient in any way.

Any deficiencies thus must be acquired from the environment (or by failure to acquired what is needed from the environment).What affects the mind in an environment is education.Thus from the below, I think you've already answered your own question


What I see is fake states(a problem not created by Africans), dorminated by fake leaders (a problem arising as a result of fake states)..,states that are begging for some sort of political reorganisation or social revolution (a problem and solution that has been witnessed elsewhere from Europe through America to Asia)and Africans are not mentally incapable of achieving those two [B]with all things being equal..

What kind of education are fake states "that are begging for some sort of political reorganisation or social revolution " capable of imparting to any mind?

When a mind does not get the kind of education that will enable it to suceed or attain to what the world deems as successful, one of the logical things to do is to start questioning if the mind ever even had intelligence in the first place.

People who question the intelligence of Africans may be wrong, some may even be crazy, but can we blame them too much?

So to clarify, the defect I see in the African mindset can be boiled down to a defect in the African's education.

And yes, that includes my own too. But I think at least knowing one's education is defective and has polluted one's mind is the first step in correcting any defects.

Felix
Nov 26, 2008, 12:01 PM
DT

You seem to be helping my argeument by invalidating the main thrust of your post with this part:


Any deficiencies thus must be acquired from the environment (or by failure to acquired what is needed from the environment).What affects the mind in an environment is education.Thus from the below, I think you've already answered your own question

What kind of education are fake states "that are begging for some sort of political reorganisation or social revolution " capable of imparting to any mind?


If I get you right, you are suggesting that somehow, the environment one finds himself defines the type of education (of the mind?) he will get and as such helps in determining the level of positive contributions he will make in the development of his society. Stretched further; the African environment mitigates against a positive educational process necessary for building not just good citizenship but also positive followership, a prereqiusite for rapid socio-economic development....Honestly , If this is what you meant , I totally agree!.., where your post starts to get more intriguing with abundant k-leg is with this line"


What kind of education are fake states "that are begging for some sort of political reorganisation or social revolution " capable of imparting to any mind?

Do I take it that you agree with me that "fake states" are incapable of guaranteeing good leadership necessary for providing the conducive environment where the type of "education necessary for the mind to succeed" will flourish??? The question is;Which one comes first here? Workable union capable of providing strong education and skills to the people or education and skills before the formation of strong state??? If we agree that improper education has polluted the African mind, can we go a little bit further to agree also that the main cause of this failed policies on education is as a result of the total failure of states in Africa??? States created for Africans by non Africans(in which case we might need to take it easy on the African man/mind).. If that is the case, it is confusing why some villagers will choose the secondary causative factor (their issues with our mind) to the "de main de main wahala" which is the fact that states enthrusted with the responsibility of organising the society in positive ways that will leed to the "education" of the citizens have failed to do so for the obvious reason that these states are not working, are fakes, have been hyjacked by more powerfull imperialist or at best undergoing a second round of colonialism under the rampaging tutelage of local champions???

There seem to be a little confusion here..When we talk about the "African mind" the feeling some of us get from the answers to the posers above is that the "African man" is solely on trial as it regards the underdevelopment of Africa. Yet , discussions like this SHOULD revolve around the two interwoven issues associated with the problems in the continent , namely; The African states and The African man. The need to concentrate on the former becomes even more important when you step back and take a serious look at the nature of African conflicts which have militated against development in the continent. It is obvious that the sign post for Africas fairlure at modernisation/civilisation/developments (kindly choose the one you are at peace with) is riddled with such pictures as the kwashiokor child from Biafra, the dead mother with her crying baby in Sudan, the headless torsos from Rwanda and so on....The nagging question is: what is the cause of these conflicts that have rocked the continent and arrested development all along?

FACT: It is important to note that 90% of the conflicts in Africa occur within the borders of individual states and not between two or more states. I mean it is easy to find Nigerians fighting among themselves than to find Nigerians fighting with Chadians! Rwandans fighting among themselves while at peace with their neighbours like the Ugandas. Conflicts within African states only spill over when there is the urge for ethnic solidarity across borders ..., borders created in Berlin! This why Tutsis and Hutus are at loggerheads in Rwanda, Hausa,Igbo and Yoruba at war in Nigeria, Kukuyis and Luos in Kenya ,Arabs and blacks in Sudan. These are classic examples of state implosions under the weight of dirty/crude wars for scarce resources between nations forced together by foreign powers into some bottled up , unworking hell holes that we refer to as political unions. So this is a classic case of malfunctioning states not malfunctioning humans! A political question that has a lot to do with the UNAFRICAN process that led to the formation of African states and not just questions associated with the formation of the African mind!


There maybe a need for independent discussions among amalgamaing units within African states to resolve social tensions by deliberately defining the terms of their union. soveriegn national conferences maybe the only option left to Africans to discuss the state and nature of every political union in the continent.States like Benin that had the National Conference in the early 90s are relatively peacefull, those that refused dialogeu and are mirred in conflict are dragging others behind with their troubles. Let the UN and AP get serious on this and let amalgamting units be independent enough to elect their true repesentatives and leaders. This is what you get in a defined states. It is when you have states created in Africa and not Berlin, and these states are still underdeveloping that you start to question the mindset of Africans not when you have western coroperations masquerading as African states with their African CEO being paraded as State leaders..

nero africanus
Nov 26, 2008, 12:16 PM
the environment dt referrs to hear is not necessarily the phyisical environment per se.

i like to think that this environment is more ephemeral than physical , it is more abstract than concrete .

there is a political environment , ideological environment , philosophical environment, educational environment, sociological environment etc

some of these environments as we can see are man made rather than god made.

Felix
Nov 26, 2008, 12:25 PM
the environment dt referrs to hear is not necessarily the phyisical environment per se.

i like to think that this environment is more ephemeral than physical , it is more abstract than concrete .

there is a political environment , ideological environment , philosophical environment, educational environment, sociological environment etc

some of these environments as we can see are man made rather than god made.

Oga Nero

Once the State is the engine room for social development, it plays a A VERY STRONG role in dictating the citizens reactions to these barrage of "environments" you just mentioned! I wasnt just refering to the physical..,I admit it is long, but try reading my post again..

katampe
Nov 26, 2008, 04:19 PM
For me, my argument for mindset is premised not on the inferiority of the African mind, but rather on his mindset. Defined earlier and delineated within the boundary of my supplied definition. For your benefit and in simple terms it means way of thinking, approach, or attitude. It is within this frame of reference, I argue that Africa, and specifically Nigerian mind has to put itself in shape.

What makes this necessary is the idea that in a world that operates on a uniform sets of values that determine how business , science , education and politics is practiced, if we must compete favourably and successfully, then we need to adopt the western mindset of approaching issues. We should be careful to realise that the western mindset that we talk about, is not particularly a western mindset, but a set of strategies and approach for doing things borrowed from the various continents and cultures that was over time put together and adapted systematically /methodically for dealing with the challenging issues of human life.

Take for instance the issue of taxes. “The first known system of taxation was in Ancient Egypt around 3000 BC - 2800 BC in the first dynasty of the Old Kingdom” (Wikipedia, 2008) and in Europe records of taxation collection was observed as early as the 17th century. (Wikipedia , 2008). The time period shows enough evidence that taxes was never a white man’s creation, rather it was adopted. I think this clearly shows what while some might associate the white man with taxes; he is not really the inventor of taxes.

Yet, he has since adopted the idea of taxes and has used that as the sole determinant of its public expenditure system. But ask the average Nigerian what his views are regarding taxes and you get an idea what his views are. But we know without holding individuals accountable to something, and the individuals that have been held accountable, without holding the government accountable in return, it becomes extremely hard to get anything done in the country. This is one instance of our mindset, or approach to economics.

-------------------------------------

Nero, when you decided on a poll to gauge public sentiments on an issue, I thought you embarked on a research, and that you intended to use the findings of that research to put forward a thesis or an argument, I did not think you would come back and argue that you were smarter than the 13 people that felt mindset was the issue.

I thought any morally responsible person interested in intellectual pursuit would set aside a minute and look at what the data meant, I mean its implication for whatever thesis you might have earlier held on to. In reality, your action in the comment I responded to showed a desperate person that fits within the definition of the mindset I earlier posted. I would be posting it below for your benefit. The highlighted part fits your attitude, and the direction you sought to chart your new argument, post data.


defined as "a habitual or characteristic mental attitude that determines how you will interpret and respond to situations." (ref:http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=mindset). Also defined as "a person's frame of reference that is fixed. A person can have a particular "mindset" that is so strong in a specific outlook that they do not see other perspectives, even though they might hear them and believe they have been given consideration. This prevents looking at new options in a realistic sense" (http://ag.arizona.edu/futures/home/glossary.html). Both definitions give a sense of my understanding of mindset.

DeepThought
Nov 26, 2008, 04:33 PM
If I get you right, you are suggesting that somehow, the environment one finds himself defines the type of education (of the mind?)

..If we agree that improper education has polluted the African mind, can we go a little bit further to agree also that the main cause of this failed policies on education is as a result of the total failure of states in Africa???



Correct.
However this is incomplete as I will explain latter after dealing with this:


Do I take it that you agree with me that "fake states" are incapable of guaranteeing good leadership necessary for providing the conducive environment where the type of "education necessary for the mind to succeed" will flourish??? The question is;Which one comes first here?


Nothing is as confusing to the human mind as a recursive relationship, especially one whose starting point is difficult to pinpoint. Some will say that the physical creates the abstract. I tend to think the opposite, so for me, the buck starts and stops with the abstract.

Everything you see today; from the physically tangible; to the intangible is as a result of the workings of the mind (nevermind that no one really knows what the mind is)

The as you put it "fake states" thus did not spring out of nothing, rather they are product of something and that something was the European MIND.

So comming back to the argument you wish to make about fake states,
it would seem to me that you want to use as your starting point the "fake states" which were initially products of the European mind. This is fair enough but it takes like to correct like.

Meaning -errors of the mind can only be corrected by the mind

My focus on the importance of the mind is because:
*the failed states were a creation of the( European) mind

* They have continued to operate along lines of failure only with the permission of and because of the connivance of the wrong (African) mindset
--------------
* There is absolutely no way anyone can convince me that Africans are not complicit in the debacle that is now Africa and that we can just lay the problems at the door of the European/fake states.

* And yes, we can take it easy on the African as a person but not on the education of his mind
-------------



If that is the case, it is confusing why some villagers will choose the secondary causative factor (their issues with our mind) to the "de main de main wahala" which is the fact that states enthrusted with the responsibility of organising the society in positive ways that will leed to the "education" of the citizens have failed to do so for the obvious reason that these states are not working, are fakes, have been hyjacked by more powerfull imperialist or at best undergoing a second round of colonialism under the rampaging tutelage of local champions???[/

In light of my preceeding explanation, perhaps you will understand why I choose to focus on the mind rather than the fruit of the mind?


Once the State is the engine room for social development, it plays a A VERY STRONG role in dictating the citizens reactions to these barrage of "environments" you just mentioned!

Substitute the MIND for State in yours above and we would be in perfect agreement.

I admit this can get a little confusing. People who talk about leadership being the primary problem with Nigeria are not that wrong because leadership also is affected by the quality of the mind which is in turn affected by the environment which is in turn affected by the structures of the state, which is in turn affected by the mind, which is in turn affected by the envirionment which is in turn affected by.....aaaaaarrrrgh!!.....

Maybe we're saying the same things in different ways :confused1

nero africanus
Nov 26, 2008, 05:15 PM
Nero, when you decided on a poll to gauge public sentiments on an issue, I thought you embarked on a research, and that you intended to use the findings of that research to put forward a thesis or an argument, I did not think you would come back and argue that you were smarter than the 13 people that felt mindset was the issue.

I thought any morally responsible person interested in intellectual pursuit would set aside a minute and look at what the data meant, I mean its implication for whatever thesis you might have earlier held on to. In reality, your action in the comment I responded to showed a desperate someone that fit within the definition of the mindset I earlier posted. I would be posting it below for your benefit. The highlighted part fits your attitude, and the direction you sought to chart your new argument, post data.


see the sentence in bold,
how exactly did you come to this conclusion, katampe ,

13 people believed that the mind set of the africa was the problem,

11 believed it was leadership.

is there anything wrong with trying to see if there was any correlation between these two?

what if we all agree that the mind set was the problem , is there anything wrong with finding:

1. how this mindset came about

2. how it can be corrected

i have a feeling you are having difficulty on comprehending my post

about what you said about taxation ,

personally i beleive that every society or organisation of humans has taxes incorporated into it.

whether you choose to call these taxes is another matter entirely

i will give you examples

in kukuruku village , the women clean and maintain the local stream once a month.

this involves a full days work involving all the women in the village.

however in whiteham village in canada, people pay taxes to the government who then proceed to maintain the water sources and the people who maintain this village stream are paid from the taxes paid by the people.

in these two communities of kukuruku and whiteham, taxes have been paid in cash and in kind , what is different is the form. indeed we can even enter a debate as to which form is more efficient.

the principality of saxony for many years employed retainers as soldiers and law enforcers paid with the taxes of the people, in aguleri able bodied young men enforced this law and fought battles for the community , these aare taxes in different forms, cash and kind.

people hate to pay taxes if they have no stake in what the tax is being used for ,

the first white man that showed up in my village was not the missionary , it was a fellow with african court messengers who came to inform the community that they now lived under the protection of the british monarch and had to pay taxes to him.

people still have an aversion to taxes where i come from cos they dont feel they have a stake in what the taxes are used for. the attitude to colonial taxeation was carried over to the nigerian state, this i believe is because they were not carried along. how do you tax people whe they have no say in how the money is spent, how do you get people to pay taxes when all politicians do is rigg elections and live like kings on the taxes the people pay

katampe
Nov 26, 2008, 05:49 PM
the direction of the correlation was the issue. why did you not ask if the mindset was the cause of the leadership problem? Based on the poll, you could have given more weight to the mindset being the most probable cause of the leadership issue, it was here you were being cunning and immoral.

If you wanted to know how the mindset came about, there were better questions to ask to reach that goal.

Hmmm, comprehending your post sha, interesting. I will overlook your attitude there.




see the sentence in bold,
how exactly did you come to this conclusion, katampe ,

13 people believed that the mind set of the africa was the problem,

11 believed it was leadership.

is there anything wrong with trying to see if there was any correlation between these two?

what if we all agree that the mind set was the problem , is there anything wrong with finding:

1. how this mindset came about

2. how it can be corrected

i have a feeling you are having difficulty on comprehending my post

about what you said about taxation ,

personally i beleive that every society or organisation of humans has taxes incorporated into it.

whether you choose to call these taxes is another matter entirely

i will give you examples

in kukuruku village , the women clean and maintain the local stream once a month.

this involves a full days work involving all the women in the village.

however in whiteham village in canada, people pay taxes to the government who then proceed to maintain the water sources and the people who maintain this village stream are paid from the taxes paid by the people.

in these two communities of kukuruku and whiteham, taxes have been paid in cash and in kind , what is different is the form. indeed we can even enter a debate as to which form is more efficient.

the principality of saxony for many years employed retainers as soldiers and law enforcers paid with the taxes of the people, in aguleri able bodied young men enforced this law and fought battles for the community , these aare taxes in different forms, cash and kind.

people hate to pay taxes if they have no stake in what the tax is being used for ,

the first white man that showed up in my village was not the missionary , it was a fellow with african court messengers who came to inform the community that they now lived under the protection of the british monarch and had to pay taxes to him.

people still have an aversion to taxes where i come from cos they dont feel they have a stake in what the taxes are used for. the attitude to colonial taxeation was carried over to the nigerian state, this i believe is because they were not carried along. how do you tax people whe they have no say in how the money is spent, how do you get people to pay taxes when all politicians do is rigg elections and live like kings on the taxes the people pay

Felix
Nov 26, 2008, 06:43 PM
For me, my argument for mindset is premised not on the inferiority of the African mind, but rather on his mindset. Defined earlier and delineated within the boundary of my supplied definition. For your benefit and in simple terms it means way of thinking, approach, or attitude. It is within this frame of reference, I argue that Africa, and specifically Nigerian mind has to put itself in shape.

Nothing you have said here defeats the fact that a state in pepertual crises creates in good quantity an overwhelming number of citizens in perpetual quandary! Sound and smart " thinking, appraoch or attitude" are obvious luxuries to many tortured citizens from many African states for the simple fact that the jumpy political situation in their homelands only provides enough time for simple mental exercises targeted solely at improving their chances for immediate personal survival. It is when the tranquility that is associated with a healthy state is unleashed that you can expect the citizens to reach to the full potentials of their natural abilities not when the fight for survival becomes their primary goal! This has been my argeument... So "for your benefit and in simple terms" please visit a place like Goma in Zaire any time soon and inquire from those starry eyed refugees running from one camp to the other as a result of the realities associated with their collapsing state wether they are in a good position to put "their mind in shape" for the purpose of playing a positive role "in a world that operates on a uniform sets of values".....:rolleyes:



What makes this necessary is the idea that in a world that operates on a uniform sets of values that determine how business , science , education and politics is practiced, if we must compete favourably and successfully, then we need to adopt the western mindset of approaching issues. We should be careful to realise that the western mindset that we talk about, is not particularly a western mindset, but a set of strategies and approach for doing things borrowed from the various continents and cultures that was over time put together and adapted systematically /methodically for dealing with the challenging issues of human life.


I think your conlusions are seriously flawed yet again! This is the problem with some of us that are desperate to blame the African man totally for the African woes but unwilling to condemn the unworkable unions that he has been forced to work with for almost two centuries now. The problem is not that Africans have refused to imbibe western norms, the problem is that we have sucked too hard from the behind of the westerner that at the moment our head is stuck right in there! Nearly all African states operate western laws on daily basis; the basis for the formation of political parties in places like Nigeria and Ghana are almost totally borrowed from the western world.., nearly 2/3 of west African states depend wholly on Paris for both their monetary/economic policies as we speak.., most of these states cant really have a leader that can govern "effectively" without western endorsement.

When you try an idea for almost two centuries with a relentless passion that is uncommon and at the end of the day you fail woefully, one will expect you to be inventive enough to seek for an alternative and not to recharge and fire on with the same choice. If all we need to do to be good at what we do is to be "follow follow" to the westerner why is communist China doing far better than the whole of Africa put together??? Becuase the copied communism from Washington??? Yes we have to import positive values from where ever (not just the west) but if there is a lesson we must learn from our experince over the last centuries , it is the fact that we cant jettison our core beleive on our abilities to understand ourselves better...In the end no matter how patronising the politics of our relations with the west looks like, the fact that Africa has suffered so unbeleivably all these years while practicing pratically every socio-economic plan copied from the west while the west progresses at amazing speed proves the point that Africa can only be saved by Africans with African oriented ideas..

nero africanus
Nov 26, 2008, 07:33 PM
the direction of the correlation was the issue. why did you not ask if the mindset was the cause of the leadership problem? Based on the poll, you could have given more weight to the mindset being the most probable cause of the leadership issue, it was here you were being cunning and immoral.

If you wanted to know how the mindset came about, there were better questions to ask to reach that goal.

Hmmm, comprehending your post sha, interesting. I will overlook your attitude there.

"direction of correlation"
"why did you not ask if mindset was the cause of the leadership problem"

but i thought i did

see the post in contention here


from the polls so far , it looks like most agree that the mindset of africans is the problem .

if the mind set of africans is the problem, what is the reason for this mindset, is it bad leadership?

there is a saying that "a people are only what their leaders make of them".

in other words if the mindset of africans is the problem then it can be corrected with credible leadership.

can we then say that the problem is a classic failure of leadership which leads to this self defeating mindset

or is the mindset of africans that leads to the failure of leadership.

i do know that a series of bad decisions taken by top leadership or cluelessness can lead to events and processes that will affect generations to come.

case in point the standard of living in ghana in 1957 was much higher than that of south korea at the same time , today the two are not even comparable.

both had been colonised , ghana by the british , korea by the japanese .

what then went wrong ,

in the 70's the indonesians and malaysians took oil palm seedlings from nigeria , today nigeria imports palm oil from those places to meet domestic needs.

how come even with the oil revenue nigeria could not even produce enough oil palm to satisfy domestic demand ,

it means that somewhere along the line , some really bad decisions had been taken.

so does mindset lead to bad leadership or does bad leadership lead to mind set?

that is the question..............


please see the sentence in bold , it concluded the post , it asked the question which led to which?

oya katampe,

enough of "moral irresponsibility" and "correlational direction"

what in your opinion led to this mindset, assuming we all agree that the mindset is the problem ?

DeepThought
Nov 27, 2008, 01:18 AM
the unworkable unions that he has been forced to work with for almost two centuries now

O.K, I 'm going to open a can of worms with a rethorical question:

Who is forcing him to work with the unworkable unions?

Felix, I hope you won't make me regret asking that question. I just opened the door wide to.....

katampe
Nov 27, 2008, 01:27 AM
my friend, I think you need help here.

The assumption of your long thesis, especially the one in bold is based on the idea that it is easier for well functioning states to apply their mind. Interestingly you are looking at the finished product, and you have refused to look at the process and how they got to the so called state where they became well functioning states.

There is that implicit assumption that they never had political issues they had it easy.Hmmm, Westerners had it easy, abi? So, they never really had to apply their mind.

Mind you, the white man has had to survive the worst environmental and political conditions on earth like winter, hurricane , floods and earthquakes. You equally have to read the horrors of their wars and the mass killing that took place for you to better appreciate that most of the things Africans complain about is small compared to the white man.

Take the case of Israel that survives in the desert and they are doing well agriculturally. They are permanently at war, and constantly have to live and survive amidst hostile enemies, yet they still apply their mind and they have not become failed states.

I tire for you folks. I am getting out of this thread men, unless you want to engage others meaningfully!



Nothing you have said here defeats the fact that a state in pepertual crises creates in good quantity an overwhelming number of citizens in perpetual quandary! Sound and smart " thinking, appraoch or attitude" are obvious luxuries to many tortured citizens from many African states for the simple fact that the jumpy political situation in their homelands only provides enough time for simple mental exercises targeted solely at improving their chances for immediate personal survival. It is when the tranquility that is associated with a healthy state is unleashed that you can expect the citizens to reach to the full potentials of their natural abilities not when the fight for survival becomes their primary goal! This has been my argeument... So "for your benefit and in simple terms" please visit a place like Goma in Zaire any time soon and inquire from those starry eyed refugees running from one camp to the other as a result of the realities associated with their collapsing state wether they are in a good position to put "their mind in shape" for the purpose of playing a positive role "in a world that operates on a uniform sets of values".....:rolleyes:





I think your conlusions are seriously flawed yet again! This is the problem with some of us that are desperate to blame the African man totally for the African woes but unwilling to condemn the unworkable unions that he has been forced to work with for almost two centuries now. The problem is not that Africans have refused to imbibe western norms, the problem is that we have sucked too hard from the behind of the westerner that at the moment our head is stuck right in there! Nearly all African states operate western laws on daily basis; the basis for the formation of political parties in places like Nigeria and Ghana are almost totally borrowed from the western world.., nearly 2/3 of west African states depend wholly on Paris for both their monetary/economic policies as we speak.., most of these states cant really have a leader that can govern "effectively" without western endorsement.

When you try an idea for almost two centuries with a relentless passion that is uncommon and at the end of the day you fail woefully, one will expect you to be inventive enough to seek for an alternative and not to recharge and fire on with the same choice. If all we need to do to be good at what we do is to be "follow follow" to the westerner why is communist China doing far better than the whole of Africa put together??? Becuase the copied communism from Washington??? Yes we have to import positive values from where ever (not just the west) but if there is a lesson we must learn from our experince over the last centuries , it is the fact that we cant jettison our core beleive on our abilities to understand ourselves better...In the end no matter how patronising the politics of our relations with the west looks like, the fact that Africa has suffered so unbeleivably all these years while practicing pratically every socio-economic plan copied from the west while the west progresses at amazing speed proves the point that Africa can only be saved by Africans with African oriented ideas..

Felix
Nov 27, 2008, 06:02 PM
O.K, I 'm going to open a can of worms with a rethorical question:

Who is forcing him to work with the unworkable unions?

Felix, I hope you won't make me regret asking that question. I just opened the door wide to.....


:D:D:D , What are you worried about? If I have to..,I will attack "them" not "you"..

Honestly I dont want to sound like I am belabouring the point so folks dont get the impression that I am desperate to force people believe in my views..What I was just trying to do was to draw attention to what I presume to be a very easy fact to grasp;that there is a strong correlation between the unworkable union created in Berlin and bequethed to Africans at the numerous fake "independence" ceremonies with the endless blunders that have followed these states thereafter. Now nothing I have said takes away the fact that an "underdeveloped" (I actually beleive that African states are developing but at a snail speed)soceity can always do better,(which means the African man has his own fair share of the blame as long as he is not able ,yet, to find a way to do away with these unworkable unions)...But to assume as most Africans living in the western world do that those they left behind should have found a way to simply get along with these prehistoric political arrangements and somehow wrench out amazing developments forthwith is to display an alarming level of political naivety. There has always been this temptation on the part of the African in the western environment to quite easily/willingly define the stark cultural diffences he sees on day to day basis between the way Europe/ America operate and the way these fumbling Africans quarrel along as the sole yardstick to measure the socio-economic problems bedevilling the African continent....

My attitude is that there is more to this! You get to notice this fact when you broaden the scope of your investigation and travel out to such areas as Asia where you have in so many hamlets certian "mindset" similar to that of the African. In Asia for instance you have extremely developed states like Japan, Singapore or even Malyasia and some other exteremly poor states (with some looking poorer than some African countries) like Myanmar, Cambodia and Nepal! Now if we change Africa with Asia above as regards the questions nero asked will our answers be so sweeping to allege "Asian mindset" as the root cause of Nepalese poverty or are we going to be magnanimous enough to allocate this "mindset theory" based on the level of development within differnt countries..., a method that will defeat the troubling assumptions being made here since based on the result of the polling so far, from Cape to Cairo the mindset theory hold sway???

What I was trying to say with the line you just quoted is the same thing I have said on this thread repeatedly and in different posts on this board; that African states are foreign creations..., that they are fakes (in my angry moments i call them prisons)that cant draw enough emotional attachment from the Africans herded inside and as such incapable of negotiating enough consensus necessary for the challenges of leapfroging their economies to the modern era..., that when you find an African state making some sort of head way , it is either as a result of the fact that it is a nation state like Botswana (in which case 90% of the time is not wasted settling social conflicts but utilised to settle social problems) or they are states that have benefitted from certain level of positive dicatorship as was the case with South Africa(talking strictly economic here)..,that the disjointed,unrefined/undefined process that led to the formation of these unions have created a lot of intra-ethnic squabbles that have made them so vulnerable to the diabolical manipulation of the insatiable imperialists...,that local colonialists are holding power for foreign colonialists thereby turning the so called African states into some sort of western corporations with efficient black CEOs..., that since the move for peacefull definition of the different political unions in Africa have met strong oppositions from the internal colonisers who have colloborated quite effectively with the ex-white colonisers to hold power, violent moves to make these change is suppressed not just by these internal colonisers but by direct interventions by the imperialists using such terms as peace keeping/peace enforcements/war crime tribunal as means to maintain a suffocating status quo..., that it is a combination of these factors arising from the structural defects asociated with the formation of the African states that are mainly responsible for the challenged development of the African society..., that renogotiating thse unions doesnt directly translate into crashng them but realistically should entail the process of devaluation/decentralisation of powers to the amalgamting units in such efficient way that the centrifugal pulls associated with the tense politics of multinational states are to some manageable extent arrested! This is my summarry DT.....


my friend, I think you need help here

Katampe

Frankly, I can go on and on to point out to you , facts that should prove that the problem is not that Africa has refused to embrace western ideals but that western ideals in certain cases have refused to embrace Africa but what is the purpose? When ever you are chased with facts your reaction always alternates betwen sarcasm and an unnecessary deployment of crude insults..You easily get frustrated when people dont quickly buy your jammed logic which in most cases are nothing but dog poop dressed up as a candy! Conviniently you have ignored the fact that several African states were under the DIRECT governance of westerners as recent as the 1980s and 1990s! In which case they needed not to be told to embrace western ideals since that is what they have been dealing with all their lives.If the medicine for the African headache is western godfathering why will countries like Zimbabwe and Namibia not relatively developed even before their so called "independence"??? These countries have been under western colonialsm, totaly, for more than a century and just got their independence in the dieing days of the last century, and as we talk the biggest problem leading to the social crises in this places revolves around structural/social issues that refused the efficacy of the western medicine!...Maybe I really need help.., but nothing you have posited here indicates that I need your brand of help..

katampe
Nov 27, 2008, 10:56 PM
we have been arguing past each other, as such my frustration.

You have proved it yet again your inability to grasp the point in argument or the point of disagreement.

you have also mischaracterised my position, and you have still not fully comprehended my thesis.

But in the interim, if you want the discussion to proceed could you please show me where I said all these you quoted, replete with examples:

1. Africa should embrace western ideals?
2. Facts you confronted me with?
3.We should have western godfathering?

I would appreciate it, and thank you in advance.



Katampe

Frankly, I can go on and on to point out to you , facts that should prove that the problem is not that Africa has refused to embrace western ideals but that western ideals in certain cases have refused to embrace Africa but what is the purpose?

When ever you are chased with facts your reaction always alternates betwen sarcasm and an unnecessary deployment of crude insults.

You easily get frustrated when people dont quickly buy your jammed logic which in most cases are nothing but dog poop dressed up as a candy!

Conviniently you have ignored the fact that several African states were under the DIRECT governance of westerners as recent as the 1980s and 1990s!

In which case they needed not to be told to embrace western ideals since that is what they have been dealing with all their lives.

If the medicine for the African headache is western godfathering why will countries like Zimbabwe and Namibia not relatively developed even before their so called "independence"???

These countries have been under western colonialsm, totaly, for more than a century and just got their independence in the dieing days of the last century, and as we talk the biggest problem leading to the social crises in this places revolves around structural/social issues that refused the efficacy of the western medicine!...Maybe I really need help.., but nothing you have posited here indicates that I need your brand of help..[/quote]

Felix
Nov 28, 2008, 12:24 AM
we have been arguing past each other, as such my frustration.

You have proved it yet again your inability to grasp the point in argument or the point of disagreement.

you have also mischaracterised my position, and you have still not fully comprehended my thesis.

But in the interim, if you want the discussion to proceed could you please show me where I said all these you quoted, replete with examples:

1. Africa should embrace western ideals?
2. Facts you confronted me with?
3.We should have western godfathering?

I would appreciate it, and thank you in advance.


[/QUOTE]

Katampe,

I dont intend to help you turn this into a personal warfare so if you show a determination to go that way, I can only wish you luck! You wrote this in post #28 :


For me, my argument for mindset is premised not on the inferiority of the African mind, but rather on his mindset. Defined earlier and delineated within the boundary of my supplied definition. For your benefit and in simple terms it means way of thinking, approach, or attitude. It is within this frame of reference, I argue that Africa, and specifically Nigerian mind has to put itself in shape.

What makes this necessary is the idea that in a world that operates on a uniform sets of values that determine how business , science , education and politics is practiced, if we must compete favourably and successfully, then we need to adopt the western mindset of approaching issues. We should be careful to realise that the western mindset that we talk about, is not particularly a western mindset, but a set of strategies and approach for doing things borrowed from the various continents and cultures that was over time put together and adapted systematically /methodically for dealing with the challenging issues of human life.


Grounded in semantics, are you going to suggest that western mindset as you pointedly discussed here is mutually disconnected to western valeus/ideals??? In which case you start to carricature your choice from the options since there is no need to condenm "African mindset" as being anti-development while parroting the efficacy of "western mindset" which has no connection with western valeus/ideals ; the engine room of western development as we have been told. Maybe I got you wrong and I am willing to accept it if what you meant is that societal progress is not defined by societal ideals because my understanding of what you wrote is the opposite!(no mischeif intended) Or are you suggesting that the African should simply start to embibe western approach to problem solution?(while totally avoiding western ideals/values) How can this happen??? Where is the boundary??? Do you really think that "western approach" has not been tried? in any of these failed states? Is this not an approach that has been imbibed in many parts of the continent and despite their efficiency in other climes have all stumbled in the face of structural questions hanging over many African states??? If we must "approach" like the westerner, why are some of us afraid of dicussing the possiblity of nation-states in Africa? Is this not what you find all over Europe???

katampe
Nov 28, 2008, 03:32 PM
Katampe,

I dont intend to help you turn this into a personal warfare so if you show a determination to go that way, I can only wish you luck! You wrote this in post #28 :Felix,

I hope I can help you sort through you confusion. Initially, I was reluctant, but you baited me into this, and I won't spare you some hard truths. Based on your response to what I wrote earlier, you responded with something not connected with what I wrote, but something you projected to what I wrote. I have a feeling this could be a psychological problem and I am willing to bring it out, and make some speculations on what it might be, after which I might end up giving you advice unsolicited.

Now, to the issue in quotes, what made you decide I intended to turn the argument into a personal warfare, and what made you conclude that I was determined to go that way that you decided to wish me luck? Is it something I wrote, I mean hard evidence that can be proven, or your reading of an implied motive to what I wrote?

Here is what I wrote :


we have been arguing past each other, as such my frustration.

You have proved it yet again your inability to grasp the point in argument or the point of disagreement.

you have also mischaracterised my position, and you have still not fully comprehended my thesis.

But in the interim, if you want the discussion to proceed could you please show me where I said all these you quoted, replete with examples:

1. Africa should embrace western ideals?
2. Facts you confronted me with?
3.We should have western godfathering?

I would appreciate it, and thank you in advance.
I had initially suspected you did not grasp the ideas you were espousing, as such I decided to opt out. I do that with many folks on this board. The reason being I hate ego trips. Once I suspect the person I am arguing with has no clear understanding of the issues, I abandon the debate. There are many interesting things to learn than waste one's time arguing endlessly with people that are not open minded.

I have come to the conclusion over time the best intellectuals are open to learning, as such open minded. It is the reason kids are such terrific learners , and adults are not so good learners. With kids, there is no frame of reference to interpret the world, and they are just absorbing things like a sponge and making sense of it all , as they go along. With adults, there is a frame of reference, an evaluation that many times is distorted by perception rather than concrete evidence. And for many more adults, religious, social, ethnic and racial values constitute an impediment to new learning.

So, in all humility, I ask again , what justified the highlighted words in your quotes above ?



Grounded in semantics, are you going to suggest that western mindset as you pointedly discussed here is mutually disconnected to western valeus/ideals??? In which case you start to carricature your choice from the options since there is no need to condenm "African mindset" as being anti-development while parroting the efficacy of "western mindset" which has no connection with western valeus/ideals ; the engine room of western development as we have been told. Maybe I got you wrong and I am willing to accept it if what you meant is that societal progress is not defined by societal ideals because my understanding of what you wrote is the opposite!(no mischeif intended) Or are you suggesting that the African should simply start to embibe western approach to problem solution?(while totally avoiding western ideals/values) How can this happen??? Where is the boundary??? Do you really think that "western approach" has not been tried? in any of these failed states? Is this not an approach that has been imbibed in many parts of the continent and despite their efficiency in other climes have all stumbled in the face of structural questions hanging over many African states??? If we must "approach" like the westerner, why are some of us afraid of dicussing the possiblity of nation-states in Africa? Is this not what you find all over Europe???I will deal with this response as soon as you clarify the issue I raised, and as we go along. But please answer my question above, so I know I am having a honest argument guided by sound morals before proceeding.

I am hoping people that are guided by good moral principles would seek to join to evaluate how we both respond to one another, who knows a social learning model might evolve, and we might better understand our behavioural patterns as Africans, which is what I have explained is at the heart of our problem in Africa. So far, your engagement in this debate demonstrates the mindset problem convincingly. As the debate goes along, I will not fail to substantiate my assertions with facts.

Obugi
Nov 28, 2008, 04:12 PM
nero,

Simple.

Mindset.

Every other thing flows from that. In so many ways, big and small, our lack of collective intelligence is illustrated everyday.

See how animated Nigerians got about child infanticide once a Caucasian pointed it out to them.

The Black African as a collective is simply unintelligent, more like transitional specie from animal to human, but closer to the lower animal.

I define intelligence as the ability to take actions that improve the chances of collective survival.


Maybe someone else will find a better name for that ability.

Africans have lost their ability to act collectively in their own interest beyond any unit larger than family and even that is breaking down more and more with each succeeding year.

The breakdown has been entrenched by contact with superior races. The individual African, and to an extent the African family, has a singular method of coping with competition from superior races.

Join forces with or adopt the culture or serve the interests of the superior race in the hope that you can pick up some secondary advantage from their defeat of the Negro collective.

Its present in every facet of the Negro existence since contact with (European) foreigners.

Beyond perhaps Black America, its a misnomer to talk of any group of Negroes as a collective in a thorough going meaning of the word. Black Americans suffer from the same individual-as-king debilitation, but they've been lucky enough to have had the opportunity to collectively adopt some of the Caucasian model, no doubt due to close and continued proximity and a complete cut off from their African roots.

The African is finished. The African collective is what it is......which is NOTHING of any VALUE that can be applied to collective survival.

The competitive forces that the African collective must contend with are simply too powerful and the individual African too cowardly, craven, superstitious and gullible to be able to be part of any collective response that will ensure survival.

Of course slavery in its more onerous forms has been cleverly abolished by the Europeans, but the modern and more benign form we have today will suffice. The only status fit for the African collective is perpetual slavery.

Don't worry about it.

Just take care of yourself.

!!! Get Yours !!!
Obugi.

nero africanus
Nov 28, 2008, 07:02 PM
nero,

Simple.

Mindset.

Every other thing flows from that. In so many ways, big and small, our lack of collective intelligence is illustrated everyday.

See how animated Nigerians got about child infanticide once a Caucasian pointed it out to them.

The Black African as a collective is simply unintelligent, more like transitional specie from animal to human, but closer to the lower animal.

I define intelligence as the ability to take actions that improve the chances of collective survival.


Maybe someone else will find a better name for that ability.

Africans have lost their ability to act collectively in their own interest beyond any unit larger than family and even that is breaking down more and more with each succeeding year.

The breakdown has been entrenched by contact with superior races. The individual African, and to an extent the African family, has a singular method of coping with competition from superior races.

Join forces with or adopt the culture or serve the interests of the superior race in the hope that you can pick up some secondary advantage from their defeat of the Negro collective.

Its present in every facet of the Negro existence since contact with (European) foreigners.

Beyond perhaps Black America, its a misnomer to talk of any group of Negroes as a collective in a thorough going meaning of the word. Black Americans suffer from the same individual-as-king debilitation, but they've been lucky enough to have had the opportunity to collectively adopt some of the Caucasian model, no doubt due to close and continued proximity and a complete cut off from their African roots.

The African is finished. The African collective is what it is......which is NOTHING of any VALUE that can be applied to collective survival.

The competitive forces that the African collective must contend with are simply too powerful and the individual African too cowardly, craven, superstitious and gullible to be able to be part of any collective response that will ensure survival.

Of course slavery in its more onerous forms has been cleverly abolished by the Europeans, but the modern and more benign form we have today will suffice. The only status fit for the African collective is perpetual slavery.

Don't worry about it.

Just take care of yourself.

!!! Get Yours !!!
Obugi.
obugi,

nwanne, welcome back where u dey since?

if this is not polemics for its own sake ,
then answer these questions

what is responsible for this mindset you refer to ?

if you cannot transcend beyond this mindless obsession with mindset as the primary problem rather than the secondary,
then ur mindset is part of the problem.
what is your answer to the mindset problem ?

Auspicious
Nov 28, 2008, 08:14 PM
Wow..

An 'interesting' thread.

The story you narrated is a heart-breaker, Nero.

Likewise some of the truths in Obugi's comments.

Still, perhaps because I consider myself A 'desperate optimist',

I refuse to accept that we, blacks anywhere, are a failed entity.

Some days are tough enough for one to give-up in despair.

But most days, one is convinced we are NO different from others.

I'll be back - This is AuspY.

Obugi
Nov 28, 2008, 09:31 PM
nero,


obugi,

nwanne, welcome back where u dey since?

if this is not polemics for its own sake ,
then answer these questions

what is responsible for this mindset you refer to ?

if you cannot transcend beyond this mindless obsession with mindset as the primary problem rather than the secondary,
then ur mindset is part of the problem.
what is your answer to the mindset problem ?

Some things are so simple as to require no explanation, yet I'll persist in offering them perhaps in the interest all who will listen.

Everything flows from mindset. The mindset itself is genetic and instinctive and can only be changed with the sort of totalitarian change that will shock the sensibilities of some of us who claim to be "civilized" or "democratic".

Changing the African mindset from "collectivist" to "individualized" was accomplished with awesome violence, relentless cunning and technological innovation. It will take a similar effort to reverse the damage, though I feel that the case here is irreversible. Any material can be stretched beyond a certain elastic limit and I feel the African is looooooooong past that point.

The cunning with which it was accomplished was so insidious that 99.9% of Africans don't even believe it exists. I will take an example right here on NVS. Very simple illustration that even a child can understand, but beyond the mental reach of the African.

What is a conspiracy?

At various times, up to even the mid 1960's, a group of White Men met in large halls in a city then named Salisbury, in a nation named Rhodesia. The devised a system and set it out in writing - outlining how they would forcibly seize lands on which large numbers of African Negroes lived.

Their plans were thorough, down to details of how they would settle the dispossessed Negroes in such a way that they would have to travel long distances to work in factories, farms and mines and thus be separated from their women and families, weakening their family structures. Taxes were devised so that the little they earned had to be paid back to the Rhodesian Parliament, leaving them perpetually poor.

The group of men that devised this system was then called the Parliament of Rhodesia. They were repeatedly selected through a democratic vote by a large population of fairly literate Caucasians who knew what the Parliament was doing.

The effects of what that Parliament did persists till this day.

Was this a conspiracy?

Most Africans will tell you - even lawyers with the benefit of "enlightenment" - that any talk of White conspiracy against Africans is nonsense.

You will find that in the African mindset, the notion of White People "conspiring" against Negroes is simply, well, unthinkable. It elicits no survival instinct in the Negro. The Black African mind has been trained by Western education to view any group of White men meeting in any building with a sign "Parliament" above it as a sacrosanct gathering, where the laws made are good just because......just because Caucasians are meeting there.

It is this mindset that allows Caucasians to wander freely the length and breadth of Nigeria, doing whatever the heck they want, inciting hatred through their damned NGO's and religions.

Its not like that in the UK, Canada, Saudi Arabia, China, Malaysia, Iran, Singapore, Russia heck even India. People are watched in case they are spies. Ideas capable of breaking social cohesion are muzzled. Just by deduction, any well informed person can see that many of the political killings in Nigeria are done by foreign intelligence agencies.

The African doesn't believe in any of this. He's so awed by the technological prowess of foreigners that they're elevated to the status of Gods. Some individual Africans who are very smart then appropriate that awe and use it to exploit their fellows in ways that are detrimental to the collective.

As in this sequence of events.

Igbo people are in awe of Caucasians.

Some smart Igbo women know this and link up with Caucasian NGO's.

They invent a story that Igbo men gang rape their women to initiate them into widowhood, that widows are not allowed to receive condolence visits, et c.

The Igbo woman gets rich. Other Africans equally in awe of Caucasians take up the banner, and on and on it goes.

Or look at the case of how Akwa Ibom Christians have gone to the extent of killing their children just because they were told a Caucasian God required it.

Something this elementary is beyond the understanding of an African.

Yahweh killed babies.

Ani the Igbo earth-god killed babies.

Both are bad and condemnable.

Elementary logic, but not to the African. Somehow, because the Caucasian was victorious over the African collective, the Caucasian God must be justified. Maybe Yahweh got his power from killing all those Egyptian babies, who knows what wonders he'll work with the blood of Ibibio children????

So the underlying reason why Akwa Ibom Christians are willing to kill their children is because they were asked in the name of a Caucasian God.

Its really that simple. The individual African regards the Caucasian as a bringer of good things that must be followed and obeyed in order to reap the rewards that accrue from the defeat of the African collective.

To my mind, there's really nothing wrong with this. Its a mechanism of survival suited for a supremely cowardly and incompetent race. I just have a problem with people pretending its not the case. That is to say, I hate hypocrisy.

SOLUTION:

No "civilized, (Western) educated" African will like the solution because it will deprive us of the easy ride we get by picking up the left over crumbs we find in Oyibo shiiit, but its a solution all the same. To understand why its going to be unpalatable, think of the economic concepts of barriers to entry and first mover advantage.

That's why its best we all settle down and enjoy our present circumstances. Things ARE getting better.....slowly, but better. We have a good mobile phone system in Nigeria that didn't exist 20yrs ago, for instance. We thank Yahweh and Allah for their small mercies.

! Get Yours !
Obugi.

DeepThought
Nov 29, 2008, 04:07 AM
Obugi,
Its interesting the way you've explained what a conspiracy is.

Some of us have come to understand the term "conspiracy" a tad differently from the way you've put it but yours does make quite a lot of sense and brings a fresh perspective to the term "conspiracy" . Perhaps its become we've become so used to the Darwinian view of life that we've come to accept conspiracies as normal and thus slowly become incapable of recognizing it in all its ramifications.

This may be as bad as those on the opposite ideological extremity who I think naively believe that the world is a good and friendly place and as such can't believe anyone could conspire against them or thiers.


You however lost me here:



SOLUTION:

No "civilized, (Western) educated" African will like the solution because it will deprive us of the easy ride we get by picking up the left over crumbs we find in Oyibo shiiit, but its a solution all the same. To understand why its going to be unpalatable, think of the economic concepts of barriers to entry and first mover advantage.

Did I miss the solution or you didn't outline it?

nero africanus
Nov 29, 2008, 06:26 AM
nero,



Some things are so simple as to require no explanation, yet I'll persist in offering them perhaps in the interest all who will listen.

Everything flows from mindset. The mindset itself is genetic and instinctive and can only be changed with the sort of totalitarian change that will shock the sensibilities of some of us who claim to be "civilized" or "democratic".

Changing the African mindset from "collectivist" to "individualized" was accomplished with awesome violence, relentless cunning and technological innovation. It will take a similar effort to reverse the damage, though I feel that the case here is irreversible. Any material can be stretched beyond a certain elastic limit and I feel the African is looooooooong past that point.



i think you are focused on the sympthoms rather than the problem, i like to beleive that bad leadership led to the status quo in question,
take for instance if nkrumah of ghana had remained president of ghana for as long as rawlings , ghana would not be the same , he would have purged them of colonial mentality and instilled in term a reassertion of the african identity.

the mindset problem is a result of defective education all round, this defective education in the end creates a mind that seeks western validation in all it does.

please read deep thoughts take , i find his theory very interesting in that he thinks the problem is cyclical , where bad leadership and mindset both feed and lead to each other.

it is quite interesting that industrialisation gives national confidence as was seen in south east asia , where national values and norms were being asserted as the nation became more and more industrialised.


in the case of nigeria , i think we all know that northern and southern nigeria have different development tangents , this in inself has held the nation back.

in other nations , you have leaders who are so incompetent it is unbelievable, the underdevelopment of africa has largely been effected by western interference.
the president of gambia is a healer with no training and thinks he cures hiv/aids.
nkrumah was removed in a cia sponsored coup the trio of busia , afrifa, acheampong ran ghana down so much so that just 7 years after nkrumah they were scattered all over the place as migrants.

lumumba in his independence address lambasted prince badoin of belgium about the exploitation of his country and his people. badoin famously said he(lumumba) was 50 years too early. so independence even at "independence" was not the intent of the europeans for africa. 5 years later, lumumba was dead , he killing was ordered by the us president eisenhower himself.

anthony eden during the suez crisis tried to assasinate the egyptian revolutionary nasser who created modern egypt. he enlisted his friend miles copeland.

milton obote of uganda was ousted by idi amin whose was a british puppet for a time.

guinea had all technical assistance from france withdrawn in 1958 because they opted for independence in a referrendum arranged by general de gaulle which it was agreed they would remain under french rule .

the rest who retained their positions were either western puppets or were so corrupt that they depended on the west to run the country.

when you look at this no continent has had it this bad, the reason why the north africans are doing better is the quality and crop of leaders they have had who were rabidly nationalist and anti western from nasser to ghadaffi.

it is a well known fact that a leader cannot have the sole interest of his nation at heart and still maintain good relations with the west. it is for this reason that mengistu mariam and julius nyerere are villified today , they put their nations first but their presidencies were destroyed by drought.

look at the nature of the IMF loans and SAP , the west has run into problems , no one is taking the IMF route or indeed advice , it only points to one thing IMF was a western tool for manipulation of developing nations






No "civilized, (Western) educated" African will like the solution because it will deprive us of the easy ride we get by picking up the left over crumbs we find in Oyibo shiiit, but its a solution all the same. To understand why its going to be unpalatable, think of the economic concepts of barriers to entry and first mover advantage.

That's why its best we all settle down and enjoy our present circumstances. Things ARE getting better.....slowly, but better. We have a good mobile phone system in Nigeria that didn't exist 20yrs ago, for instance. We thank Yahweh and Allah for their small mercies.

! Get Yours !
Obugi.
what is the solution or did i miss it ?

naijanubian
Nov 29, 2008, 02:33 PM
@ nero africanus

Great thread, just what was needed. Hope to join-in later.

Obugi
Nov 29, 2008, 03:06 PM
nero,


i think you are focused on the sympthoms rather than the problem, i like to beleive that bad leadership led to the status quo in question,

I focus on the symptoms because as obvious as they might seem to you or me, fact is most Africans don't even see those symptoms or believe in their causes. Its necessary to explain these things in minute step-by-step, the way you'd explain things to a toddler or train a puppy dog : the intelligence of the Negro is that stunted.

You and DT are quite right, I outlined no solution. The options that will ensure the long term survival and freedom of Negroes are quite clear. Very obvious.

Survival means ensuring the genetic traits of the Black African are passed on to the next generation, freedom means being able to live happily and satisfied with what one has and where there are certain things we wish to obtain from others, being able to obtain them on fair and reasonable terms if possible, or on terms favorable to the Negro if that is not possible.

Such terms include freedom to practice and reform our own cultures as we wish, without being enslaved, economically exploited and killed by foreigners for the privilege of, for example, being told that it is wrong to kill twins or that polygamy is evil........especially when the said foreigners continue to practice infanticide (abortion on demand) and polygamy (without marriage certificates). Or being told that Sango is an evil god when the foreigner in question has demonstrated by their collective action that they believe in no God at all.

1. This is the most obvious solution, the one undertaken by the Vietnamese, the Chinese, Zimbabweans, Cuba and Iran. Simply take what you want no matter the cost. There are details of course. The African can learn from the mistakes of others. But it will require a certain physical and intellectual courage that I believe the "educated" African simply doesn't have, not these days anyway. Just the attitude of Africans to say......Iran/US relations gives you all the evidence you need.

2 Invite the Europeans, or these days the Chinese, to come and rule us. I'm talking things like the Kwara State farming scheme on a large scale, with adequate compensation paid to the landowners. Let them come and live amongst us so they will feel the need to actually invest in their physical and economic needs by building roads, sewers, proper hospitals and technology generating schools and a viable rule of law. It's time to acknowledge that the African is a totally failed race.

The African needs help. The most obvious example staring us in the face is that it took a 29yr old Caucasian (probably an atheist) to sensitize us to the plight of the Child Witches of Akwa Ibom. Our mentality is so damaged that we only listen to light skinned foreigners. Its no accident that the Ghanians would only listen to a revolution led by a nearly White Jerry Rawlings; its no accident that Negroes are so energized by a half-White Barrack Obama. If Chukwuma Nzeogwu had been mulatto, I'm sure Nigerian history would have turned out different.

We need Caucasians or maybe Chinese to run our electricity grid to stop chronic black-outs. We need Oyibo police for a decent shot at safety. You know an Oyibo (police)man will at least respond to gunfire in the middle of the night, rather than let the armed robbers carry on leisurely till daybreak. Let them show us simple examples of living a decent life, such as how to properly dispose off trash (duuuuhhhh!!!) Let them come live among us in integrated communities (no segregated ghettos, please).

I mean this in all seriousness.

You know the Europeans played a dirty trick on the West and Central African, and they're successfully selling the same crap 50 yrs later to the Southern Africans......and such is the infantile stupidity of the African Negro. What I'm talking about is the FACT that "independence" for Nigeria, to take on example, has enabled
the UK and US to continue controlling Nigeria via remote control while having no developmental responsibilities for the physical space or the humanity contained in it.

They've gotten tired of ruling Southern Africa and now they're implementing the West African solution before our very eyes.

The important thing is to try negotiating colonial agreement that accomodates some freedoms for the African. Is it possible? I don't know, but we must try. That's why I hope the Afrikaaners of South Africa will see the light, that its possible to at least grant the Black African an improved Status of Slavery, something akin to the 2nd Class Status of the Black American. Why can't they just pay the Black Africans a just compensation for the land they took? Its not as if the Africans will achieve anything with the money anyway!!!!! Just print money and hand it to the dumb Africans, as long as its handed out by a White Man, it will be valuable to the Negroe!

3. Interbreeding. Please my people, marry Oyibo, encourage your children to do so. I believe that any family without genetic links to the Caucasian will regret it in the next few decades. This doesn't need much explanation.

Just some options that occurred to me. I've said long ago that no one knows where our salvation will come from, history has a way of surprising us, but we can have some input. See how the Chinese conspired to take advantage of America's consumerist obsession to lock the USA into a Mutual Assured Destruction economic standoff. Look how the Afrikaaners conspired to use Mandela to promote a facade of "self rule" in South Africa, but there I go with my "conspiracy theories".

The African may have lost the courage to fight. We might not be intelligent enough to negotiate or conspire to achieve parity, much less dominance. The least we can do for ourselves and our future generations is to ensure a decent Status of Slavery. If we can't do even that, someone in Beijing or Washington DC is going to conclude that we're unworthy of life. Let's be realistice......it won't take much to wipe us off the face of Africa.

Time is running out.

!!! Get Yours !!!
Obugi.

naijanubian
Nov 29, 2008, 04:11 PM
nero,



I focus on the symptoms because as obvious as they might seem to you or me, fact is most Africans don't even see those symptoms or believe in their causes. Its necessary to explain these things in minute step-by-step, the way you'd explain things to a toddler or train a puppy dog : the intelligence of the Negro is that stunted.

You and DT are quite right, I outlined no solution. The options that will ensure the long term survival and freedom of Negroes are quite clear. Very obvious.

Survival means ensuring the genetic traits of the Black African are passed on to the next generation, freedom means being able to live happily and satisfied with what one has and where there are certain things we wish to obtain from others, being able to obtain them on fair and reasonable terms if possible, or on terms favorable to the Negro if that is not possible.

Such terms include freedom to practice and reform our own cultures as we wish, without being enslaved, economically exploited and killed by foreigners for the privilege of, for example, being told that it is wrong to kill twins or that polygamy is evil........especially when the said foreigners continue to practice infanticide (abortion on demand) and polygamy (without marriage certificates). Or being told that Sango is an evil god when the foreigner in question has demonstrated by their collective action that they believe in no God at all.
1. This is the most obvious solution, the one undertaken by the Vietnamese, the Chinese, Zimbabweans, Cuba and Iran. Simply take what you want no matter the cost. There are details of course. The African can learn from the mistakes of others. But it will require a certain physical and intellectual courage that I believe the "educated" African simply doesn't have, not these days anyway. Just the attitude of Africans to say......Iran/US relations gives you all the evidence you need.

2 Invite the Europeans, or these days the Chinese, to come and rule us. I'm talking things like the Kwara State farming scheme on a large scale, with adequate compensation paid to the landowners. Let them come and live amongst us so they will feel the need to actually invest in their physical and economic needs by building roads, sewers, proper hospitals and technology generating schools and a viable rule of law. It's time to acknowledge that the African is a totally failed race.

The African needs help. The most obvious example staring us in the face is that it took a 29yr old Caucasian (probably an atheist) to sensitize us to the plight of the Child Witches of Akwa Ibom. Our mentality is so damaged that we only listen to light skinned foreigners. Its no accident that the Ghanians would only listen to a revolution led by a nearly White Jerry Rawlings; its no accident that Negroes are so energized by a half-White Barrack Obama. If Chukwuma Nzeogwu had been mulatto, I'm sure Nigerian history would have turned out different.

We need Caucasians or maybe Chinese to run our electricity grid to stop chronic black-outs. We need Oyibo police for a decent shot at safety. You know an Oyibo (police)man will at least respond to gunfire in the middle of the night, rather than let the armed robbers carry on leisurely till daybreak. Let them show us simple examples of living a decent life, such as how to properly dispose off trash (duuuuhhhh!!!) Let them come live among us in integrated communities (no segregated ghettos, please).

I mean this in all seriousness.

You know the Europeans played a dirty trick on the West and Central African, and they're successfully selling the same crap 50 yrs later to the Southern Africans......and such is the infantile stupidity of the African Negro. What I'm talking about is the FACT that "independence" for Nigeria, to take on example, has enabled
the UK and US to continue controlling Nigeria via remote control while having no developmental responsibilities for the physical space or the humanity contained in it.

They've gotten tired of ruling Southern Africa and now they're implementing the West African solution before our very eyes.

The important thing is to try negotiating colonial agreement that accomodates some freedoms for the African. Is it possible? I don't know, but we must try. That's why I hope the Afrikaaners of South Africa will see the light, that its possible to at least grant the Black African an improved Status of Slavery, something akin to the 2nd Class Status of the Black American. Why can't they just pay the Black Africans a just compensation for the land they took? Its not as if the Africans will achieve anything with the money anyway!!!!! Just print money and hand it to the dumb Africans, as long as its handed out by a White Man, it will be valuable to the Negroe!

3. Interbreeding. Please my people, marry Oyibo, encourage your children to do so. I believe that any family without genetic links to the Caucasian will regret it in the next few decades. This doesn't need much explanation.

Just some options that occurred to me. I've said long ago that no one knows where our salvation will come from, history has a way of surprising us, but we can have some input. See how the Chinese conspired to take advantage of America's consumerist obsession to lock the USA into a Mutual Assured Destruction economic standoff. Look how the Afrikaaners conspired to use Mandela to promote a facade of "self rule" in South Africa, but there I go with my "conspiracy theories".

The African may have lost the courage to fight. We might not be intelligent enough to negotiate or conspire to achieve parity, much less dominance. The least we can do for ourselves and our future generations is to ensure a decent Status of Slavery. If we can't do even that, someone in Beijing or Washington DC is going to conclude that we're unworthy of life. Let's be realistice......it won't take much to wipe us off the face of Africa.

Time is running out.

!!! Get Yours !!!
Obugi.


@Obugi

I find your post quite contradictory and have highlighted those areas in dark red. Are you being sarcastic? I sincerely hope so... And why do Africans need to rely on foreigners to realise our potentials?

Obugi
Nov 29, 2008, 04:49 PM
Naijanubian,


@Obugi

I find your post quite contradictory and have highlighted those areas in dark red. Are you being sarcastic? I sincerely hope so... And why do Africans need to rely on foreigners to realise our potentials?

No sarcasm.

No contradiction.

Well, do you know Igbo men gang rape their women to initiate them into widowhood? That na joke or sarcasm?

What I advocate is already the case in Nigeria, except for this : Oyibo don't live among us large scale and have no "living stake" in Nigeria.

They control 95% of all wealth creating, large employment, viable economic activity in Nigeria. Even some big companies that seem nominally indigenous are in fact Caucasian or at least foreign owned and controlled. Do I even have to give examples? Can we please face reality? The little bit of livability we have in Nigeria now is (IN)DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTABLE to Caucasian influence. Our task is to deepen that influence and reap the rewards of an improved standard of living.

Short example. My hometown has thousands of acres of land lying fallow and unproductive. Why not the Fed Govt mandate that it MUST be SOLD to Europeans who can produce what we need with the land?

Give Nigerian citizenship to hundreds of thousands of Oyibo to come get the land with money provided by the Fed Govt, which is owned by the UK anyway (do you doubt this?).

Let there be elections. I know my people, Oyibo candidates will win hands down. Do you doubt it? Even if they don't rule, they will make a physical difference in our standard of living. I'm willing to bet that those Zimbabwe farmers are already performing miracles in Kogi State.

The only thing is there must be no "Oyibo exclusive areas". No exclusive schools or jobs. Lets all live together and intermingle and intermarry. If we want polygamy, then leave us alone.....if we want to worship Sango, don't tell us we're worshipping the devil while you happily interact with Hindus who do the same "paganism". Oyibos these days have a certain liberal bent mixed in with the racist greed. They will get tired of the bad roads and build good ones. Luckily our people are so in awe of Oyibo that they will immediately mobilize to do whatever Oyibo says we need to do......like clear our trash, build a sewer system and stop killing babies in the name of Ani......oooooops, I mean Jesus.

What have I written that isn't realistic given the current state of things in Nigeria/Africa? Abeg make I hear word jare.

NASA is budgeting to go to Mars, the Hindus are on the way to the moon and Negroes can't even ensure a smooth car ride from Lagos to Onitsha.

Child infanticide in Akwa Ibom only became an issue because an Oyibo man said so.

Africans only seem willing to work hard when they're in Oyibo controlled environments. That one na lie too????

No sarcasm here abeg. OK now, are you willing to go through what the Zimbabweans, Iranians and Vietnamese have suffered for true freedom or at least respect???

Oyibo should please, please, :pray::pray::pray: please come back. Let's negotiate some terms of cohabitation. I'm sure we can manage a Status of Slavery agreement where I can at least live a physically decent life in my homeland under your tutledge.

Sarcasm???? Please spare me. Can you take a good look around the world the African exists in and tell me my comments are out of step with REALITY? :lol: Is there ANY Negro controlled nation on earth you would like your children to grow up in with no option of getting out? What is the difference between Caribbean Negroes and those that reside in the UK,US and South Africa?

Talk true now abeg lol!

Let's keep deceiving ourselves. Keep picking our nose while our hair is burning or whatever.

! Get Yours !
Obugi.

nero africanus
Nov 29, 2008, 05:40 PM
Will Money Solve Africa's Development Problems?


The problem in Africa has never been lack of money, but rather the inability to exploit the African mind. Picture a banana farmer in a rural African village with a leaking roof that would cost $100 to fix. If one purchased $100 worth of his bananas, the farmer would have the power and choice to determine whether the leaking roof is his top spending priority. On the other hand, if he is given $100 as a grant or loan to fix the roof, his choice would be limited to what the owner of the big money views as a priority. Out of 960 million Africans in 53 states, there are innovators and entrepreneurs who, if rewarded by the market, will address the challenges facing the continent.

If money was the key to solving problems, banks would send agents on the streets to supply money to afflicted individuals. But banks only offer money to individuals who successfully translate their problems into opportunities. A $7 million British compensation to 228 Samburu herders in Kenya in 2002 did not stop them from turning into paupers by 2007. Money in itself is neutral. Big money viewed as capital has led strategists (who depict Africa as trapped in a cycle of poverty) to argue for massive inflows of money as the only means of escape from poverty. Viewing money as a receipt for value, a creation, and a resultant effect of exchange between different parties offers a chance to translate African problems into opportunities.

As Lord Peter Bauer aptly pointed out, "Money is the result of economic achievement and not a precondition." How can Africans engage in activities that will lead to economic achievement? The key is to transform the mindset of the 50% of the African population below age 20 to focus on turning African problems into opportunities. In Africa today, there are entrepreneurial opportunities to feed an estimated 200 million hungry people, kill billions of malaria causing mosquitoes that threaten the lives of an estimated 500 million, and develop infrastructure.

Africa has enormous capital in the form of natural resources that include oil, hydroelectric power, diamonds, uranium, gold, cobalt, 70% of the world’s Coltan and 34% of its cassiterite. Coltan and cassiterite are strategic in the production of cell phones, laptops, and other portable electronic products. If Africans employed the power of reason, the global cell phone industry that churns out 25 cell phones per second would provide a huge source of revenue for respective countries; thereby widening their menu of choices.

Focusing on the African human mind as capital will help translate resources into wealth, thereby helping to solve Africa’s problems. Money’s usefulness and value will only spring from rational responses to the challenges that face the continent through exchange of products and services at the village, national, continental, and international levels.


James Shikwati is the founder and director of the Inter Region Economic Network and CEO of The African Executive business magazine.

nero africanus
Nov 29, 2008, 05:42 PM
Will Money Solve Africa's Development Problems?

Not as long as there are issues such as prolonged violent conflict, bad governance, excessive external interference, and lack of an autonomous policy space. Alone, money cannot solve Africa’s development problems. Proof, if any was needed, is the fact that many of Africa’s natural resource-rich countries score very low on human development indicators.

Africa’s development challenges are multifaceted. Colonial history still looms large. Money cannot undo that history. Five decades after independence we are still grappling with building the nation-state. On the one hand, whole nations were split up by artificial boundaries to form separate independent countries, while on the other hand, several nation-states were lumped together within these same artificially delineated borders. To this already complex picture was added the impact of Cold War rivalries among major powers, which extended to the African theatre.

No amount of money can build the damaged trust between a government and its citizens. Decades of defective political and economic governance, and the failure by early post-independence governments to deliver on the promises of independence spun disillusionment and led to unfulfilled expectations paving the way to undemocratic dictatorial rule, the demise of the rule of law, ethnic strife, and economic and social chaos. In extreme cases these conditions led to a string of very weak or failed states.

This said, we must realize money is still needed and Africa will, for a while, require external support by way of concessional finance, given its limited domestic savings. Remember, 40% of Africans live in landlocked states, often as far away as 2,000 kilometers from a maritime port. Building infrastructure that links countries and expanding market size and diversity requires significant resources; so do fighting HIV/AIDS and educating Africa’s children.

The good news is that a new generation of African leaders is determined to make a difference. In the last two years, Africa has made substantial progress on the economic and governance fronts. We are encouraged by the sustained strong macroeconomic and structural reforms on one hand, and improved governance on the other. These will go a long way toward reducing the risks and costs of doing business-prerequisites for stimulating both domestic and foreign investment, the only means to create wealth.

Lastly, Africa must be given a chance to meaningfully integrate into the global trading environment in order to sustain growth performance. It will not happen if international commitments such as those made at the Gleneagles G 8 Summit are not met. The Doha Trade Round negotiations need to succeed. These negotiations have been called a Development Round because they frontload the interests of developing countries such as those in Africa. At the end of the day, we are all God’s children and he gave us one world in which we are interdependent.


Dr. Donald Kaberuka is the president of the African Development Bank and was formerly minister of finance of Rwanda.

DeepThought
Nov 30, 2008, 08:24 AM
@Obugi,

1. This is the most obvious solution, the one undertaken by the Vietnamese, the Chinese, Zimbabweans, Cuba and Iran. Simply take what you want no matter the cost. There are details of course. The African can learn from the mistakes of others. But it will require a certain physical and intellectual courage that I believe the "educated" African simply doesn't have, not these days anyway. Just the attitude of Africans to say......Iran/US relations gives you all the evidence you need.

2 Invite the Europeans, or these days the Chinese, to come and rule us. I'm talking things like the Kwara State farming scheme on a large scale, with adequate compensation paid to the landowners. Let them come and live amongst us so they will feel the need to actually invest in their physical and economic needs by building roads, sewers, proper hospitals and technology generating schools and a viable rule of law. It's time to acknowledge that the African is a totally failed race.

The African needs help. The most obvious example staring us in the face is that it took a 29yr old Caucasian (probably an atheist) to sensitize us to the plight of the Child Witches of Akwa Ibom. Our mentality is so damaged that we only listen to light skinned foreigners. Its no accident that the Ghanians would only listen to a revolution led by a nearly White Jerry Rawlings; its no accident that Negroes are so energized by a half-White Barrack Obama. If Chukwuma Nzeogwu had been mulatto, I'm sure Nigerian history would have turned out different.

We need Caucasians or maybe Chinese to run our electricity grid to stop chronic black-outs. We need Oyibo police for a decent shot at safety. You know an Oyibo (police)man will at least respond to gunfire in the middle of the night, rather than let the armed robbers carry on leisurely till daybreak. Let them show us simple examples of living a decent life, such as how to properly dispose off trash (duuuuhhhh!!!) Let them come live among us in integrated communities (no segregated ghettos, please).

I mean this in all seriousness.

You know the Europeans played a dirty trick on the West and Central African, and they're successfully selling the same crap 50 yrs later to the Southern Africans......and such is the infantile stupidity of the African Negro. What I'm talking about is the FACT that "independence" for Nigeria, to take on example, has enabled
the UK and US to continue controlling Nigeria via remote control while having no developmental responsibilities for the physical space or the humanity contained in it.

They've gotten tired of ruling Southern Africa and now they're implementing the West African solution before our very eyes.

The important thing is to try negotiating colonial agreement that accomodates some freedoms for the African. Is it possible? I don't know, but we must try. That's why I hope the Afrikaaners of South Africa will see the light, that its possible to at least grant the Black African an improved Status of Slavery, something akin to the 2nd Class Status of the Black American. Why can't they just pay the Black Africans a just compensation for the land they took? Its not as if the Africans will achieve anything with the money anyway!!!!! Just print money and hand it to the dumb Africans, as long as its handed out by a White Man, it will be valuable to the Negroe!

3. Interbreeding. Please my people, marry Oyibo, encourage your children to do so. I believe that any family without genetic links to the Caucasian will regret it in the next few decades. This doesn't need much explanation.

Just some options that occurred to me. I've said long ago that no one knows where our salvation will come from, history has a way of surprising us, but we can have some input. See how the Chinese conspired to take advantage of America's consumerist obsession to lock the USA into a Mutual Assured Destruction economic standoff. Look how the Afrikaaners conspired to use Mandela to promote a facade of "self rule" in South Africa, but there I go with my "conspiracy theories".

The African may have lost the courage to fight. We might not be intelligent enough to negotiate or conspire to achieve parity, much less dominance. The least we can do for ourselves and our future generations is to ensure a decent Status of Slavery. If we can't do even that, someone in Beijing or Washington DC is going to conclude that we're unworthy of life. Let's be realistice......it won't take much to wipe us off the face of Africa.

Time is running out.


I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
How would you place your own state of mind if you don't mind my asking?
Do you think there could be anything wrong with your own mindset?

nero africanus
Nov 30, 2008, 09:58 AM
@Obugi,



I don't know wether to laugh or cry.
How would you place your own state of mind if you don't mind my asking?
Do you think there could be anything wrong with your own mindset?

thank you deep thought,

i was that confused about how to respond , there is very deep despair that colours obugi's writings about africa since i started to read him. his intent is to shock the reader into realisation. i doubt if this will work by itself.

the main trust of his post

1. the black man is asking or should be enslaved
2. the black man has failed in the basic activity of survival
3. the religions adopted by the black all being inauthetic has destroyed the black man


he has been consistent in espousing these for the last 2-3 years or so. he is applying a mirror and has advocated opinions meant to shock , annoy and maybe represent where we are all headed as a collective.

you probabely have to take out the hack job to reach the diamonds

Obugi
Nov 30, 2008, 03:10 PM
DT,

I appreciate your tendency to always want to believe the best about Africans. What I can't abide is playing that "pride" card when it contradicts simple, visible truth. You tell me what mindset is that.

I made clear from the start that some solutions I think will enhance African survival and freedom will not be palatable to the "educated" African mind.

There's nothing wrong with trading. Basically that's what I'm advocating.

Let's trade with the Caucasians - We get a better standard of living for us predicated on the sort of Higher Standard of Slavery enjoyed today by Black Americans.

The Caucasian gets what they've been getting all this time anyway.....they're getting it anyway, and you know it.

The only difference between my trade and what exists now is the voluntary nature and an agreed price.

Where the price is not agreed, then either side may take unilateral actions to secure its interests. Essentially, that's what happened in the European Land grabs in Southern Africa, which is why I think Mugabe did the right thing in reversing it. If Oyibo wants to come back and farm, let him pay an AREED price for the land, not take it by force. My stand is that simple.

Read my reply to NaijaNubian.

If my trade is anathema to you, what is YOUR solution........a solution that will take cognizance of what the African and Caucasian/Asian can bring to the table/conflict?

The African collective is too far damaged for any sort of self affirming rescue, and the past few days on NVS have been a poignant illustration of things I've been saying for the past 3 or so yrs. I've maintained that RELIGION is the single most important debilitating factor that rendered the African collective non-functional beyond any unit larger than family.

Anyway, make una carry on. Mind you, I'm not worried about any African individual. I've always said we're doing OK by that measure......the worst that can happen is death, and its coming to every individual whether you're Black, White, Yellow or Green.

Obugi.

DeepThought
Nov 30, 2008, 08:45 PM
There's nothing wrong with trading. Basically that's what I'm advocating.

??
You sure have a different understanding of what trade is from mine.

Assuming of course that you're really serious (which I doubt) about what you wrote up there rather than criticing your ideas, which I can't even bring myself to do this since we're beyond being poles apart on solutions , I 'll move on to this:


If my trade is anathema to you, what is YOUR solution........a solution that will take cognizance of what the African and Caucasian/Asian can bring to the table/conflict?

I'm sure you won't like some of my solutions either. I'll quckly outline in very general terms , using non controversial language a few things that need to be done and how they can be done. There is a limit to what one can write before without somebody comming along to accuse one of supporting treason, insurrection, terrorism e.t.c. I'll try to choose my words carefully.

Here goes:

1.Destruc.(.oops Reformation ;)) the current African Elite and Institutions

African Institutions - The Military:
I can talk a bit more freely about this but still not too freely.Take the case of Nigeria.The Nigerian Armed Forces has to be utterly destro...er.sorry, I mean reformed.

The way this can be done carefully simply, gradually and smoothly within 10 year by:

1. First Extending the NYSC to say a minimum of 2-3 years and introducing serious compulsory military training into this program
2. Seconding members of the NYSC to serve with the current Military as a matter of compulsion.
3. Creating a "civilian paramiltary/auxilliary".
Miliatary service has to be extended to the rest of society and every able bodied adult regardless of sex, religion or education must be made to receive military training.

4. Gradaully isola...eerr .. re-assign members of the officer corps of the current armed forces for "temporary assignment" to the newly created civilian paramilitary/auxilliary austentatively in order to train the paramilitary and bring them up to par.

5. Gradually Seconding members of of the paramilitary and NYSC to the regular armed forces.

6. Eventually integrating and merging the paramilitary with the armed forces and letting go the officers and NCMs who don't allign with the paramilitary Similarly, it is possible to work out methods to reform other fundamental institutions of the African states such as education , Industry, e.t.c. once we recognize the need


Decimat....err, Reformation of the Elite - the fundamental problem

That the current African "elites" are wasted matter is not a revelation to anyone so I'm not going to bother explaining why any solution must involve the getting rid of this group. The problem is that the traditional method of "removing" a class in society in a very short time is usually, (if not always) very bloo..opps... messy.
The amusing thing is everybody including the members of the elite class know this is comming. Its for that reason they have safe havens outside the shores of Nigeria, are armed with multiple passports and have millions stashed aborad for the inevitable day of reckoning.

Let me be clear:
I'm not advocating for the spilling of innocent blood but I won't shed a tear if I see the immediate and long overdue removal by whatever means (make whatever you want of that term ) from African spaces of certain individuals and their collaborators whom we all know so well . There is no need to name anyone. IF we have to make a list , I'm sure you won't have any problems comming up with at least a couple of hundred names.

A major problem with the above solution is that of succession. If care is not taken we run the risk of making a situation worse if viable people have not been prepared sufficiently to take up the mantle of leadership.

Though I don't see many satisfactory successors, I still see some rebellious factions in Nigeria operating for now under what some would call secessionist and ethinic ideals. I'm willing to support these factions and be willing to give them a chance- warts and all.


Other things that need to be done?
- The reconstitution of the structures of the African states
*I think volumes have already been written on this. Is there any need to revisit this?

- A revisit of our membership/relationships with organizations like the UN, WTO, IMF, WB e.t.c
Nigeria needs to get out of the IMF, severely restrict and redefine its relationship with such organizations. Rather than "belonging" we need to focus on one on one relationships with countries which we think will benefit us.

IF a gigagazillion dollar econony of a "developed" country is foolish enough to need dust (buxite) or dead organic matter (Oil) in order to keep funcitoning and if that that particular economy is incapable of sustainably producing what it needs for and by itself and further more, if that economy has to go to say the "Democratic" "Republic" of Congo or the Niger Delta swamps of Nigeria in order to obtain these things; what stops the DRC or Nigeria from bringing the economy of the "developed " country crashing down if the "developed" nation cannot or is unwilling to meet certain terms and condition laid down by say the DRC or Nigeria?

Trapped by the inadequcies and insecurities of our own minds, it is precisely by acting on such beliefs that we must "belong" or have membership in many of these useless organizations which are just extensions of the Command and Control Centres (CCC ) of often hostile forces that is making most African countries even more vulnerable to exploitation.

Of course by getting out or trying to get out of the CCC of these hostile forces, the African countries should start preparing itself militarily to discourage easy invasions. In any case the grounds for possible invasions are already being prepared so what does it matter?

Obugi
Nov 30, 2008, 10:27 PM
DT

I'm surprised you can be this blase or whatever o, more like pretending not to know. Hmmmm.

What you've outlined in terribly impractical. A violent insurrection stands a better chance, believe me.......if you can find collaborators.

Those in control of Nigeria know what you know.

Its not by accident that we have laws that restrict gun ownership to the military and police, for one.

Its not by accident that we have so many tribes herded together into Nigeria to keep one another in check.

Our entire system has been designed for foreign control by remote means - from the education, tribal makeup, religion, economic, social etc. The web is so interlocking, untangling it is going to be helele. It has advanced and embedded such that its become "normal" and self perpertuating.

That NYSC you mention is most likely thoroughly penetrated and watched for troublesome "panaf" types.

You'd be surprised how many officers in the police, armed forces, civil service and so on are directly or unwittingly in the employ of the British or US intelligence services.

Let me give a simple example. Did you follow the 2006 conflict between Hezbollah and Israel?

Hezbollah is trained by Iran. Iranian military officers of course do not get any Western training. How did Hezbollah manage to fight Israel to a standstill while Western trained armies like Egypt and Jordan admit they can't do it today?

Which of these countries is like Nigeria in relation to the West, Iran or the others?

That's the military. What exactly do you mean by the elite? Are NYSC servers elite? Many of the people on NVS are no different from NYSC members. Do they sound like people who really want to overthrow the Nigerian system?

The Christians? The Women rights activists? The business people with interests in Nigeria? The Niger Delta activists? You have to understand that 99.9999% of people in Nigeria have an instinctive understanding of what's going on even if they can't spell it out coherently. They want it like this because they hope to eventually benefit from it. Every teenager and adult in Nigeria is living for the day they can attach themselves to the system and get their own crumb or big piece of cake. In fact, I believe most Africans/Negroes secretly wish to kill off every other African......so that they can enjoy "Oyibo's goodies" alone. A logical outcome from a mind that produces NOTHING of its own and lives essentially as a parasite on other races.

I'm even going too far. How the heck are you going to get 10 non-family related Nigerians to co-operate in furthering a significant common goal, assuming they can find something in common to work toward? :lol::lol::lol: What ideology/religion is going to sustain them?

How are you going to get a National Military Service or whatever through the National Assembly?

We're talking about N-i-g-e-r-i-a-n-s, right????

You talk about the UN and all those international orgs. Not even maybe 0.00000001% of Nigerians TRULY understand what the UN is. Who understands why the dollar is the world reserve currency, why it came about and the significance of it?

Can you imagine what will be the reaction of Nigerians if the Fed Govt tries to take us out of the UN, IMF, WB and so on? In short, right here on NVS, what do you think will be the reaction? Probably the same way a Nigerian reacts when someone says "there is no God." A visceral wish to stone the heretic to death.

Probably the same way they feel when you tell them Nelson Mandela, just like Robert Mugabe, killed thousands of his own fellow Africans to consolidate power. They just can't bring themselves to believe it because Oyibo has told them Mandela is a Saint. It like telling them you saw a fish riding a bicycle.

Africans have been thoroughly and completely brained and drained of any collective survival instinct.

The individual survives though.

In my hometown one guy just finished building a helicopter pad atop his mansion because the roads to his village have become impassable. Others have theirs under construction and by the looks of the roads in my own quarter, I may have to give it serious consideration. I'm taking donations. I hear helicopter taxis are now the way to go, they're operating in Lagos sef.

Now that's an African solution for you. :biggrin:

!!! Get Yours !!!
Obugi.

Obugi
Dec 3, 2008, 02:41 AM
All,

Check this out people. Looks like someone is getting the right idea!

:source Time Magazine:Koreans In Madagascar (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1861145,00.html)

Sunday, Nov. 23, 2008

The Breadbasket of South Korea: Madagascar

By Vivienne Walt

Tenant farming was popular in rural America until the Dust Bowl years of the Depression, but the practice is making a comeback on an epic scale in much of Africa. This time, however, the "tenants" are not simply family farmers down on their luck and willing to work land they don't own; they're major international corporations and governments looking to compensate for shortages of arable land in their own countries by setting up massive industrial farms abroad. South Korea's Daewoo Logistics this week announced that it had negotiated a 99-year lease on some 3.2 million acres of farmland on the dirt-poor tropical island of Madagascar, off southern Africa's Indian Ocean coast. That's nearly half of Madagascar's arable land, according to the U.N.'s Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), and Daewoo plans to put about three quarters of it under corn. The remainder will be used to produce palm oil — a key commodity for the global biofuels market.

A Daewoo manager, Hong Jong-wan, told the Financial Times that the crops would "ensure our food security" and would use "totally undeveloped land which had been left untouched." Land is scarce and expensive in South Korea, making it the world's third-largest importer of corn. Daewoo says the Madagascar land will be leased for about $12 an acre, which is a fraction of the cost of farmland in the corporation's home country. (See pictures of the world's harvests.)

Not everyone is convinced that Daewoo's move is the most effective way of promoting food security. Riots have shaken dozens of countries across the world over the past year as poor people have found themselves unable to pay the rocketing prices for staples such as rice, corn and sugar. The U.N.'s World Food Programme (WFP) runs school-feeding schemes for children in Madagascar, where about 70% of the country's 20 million people live below the poverty line. The island's residents also rely on WFP emergency-food-relief programs because of the frequency with which they are struck by cyclones and droughts. Given those hardships, the prospect of a corporate giant growing hundreds of tons of food to be consumed by people and animals in Korea raises "ethical concerns," says David Hallam, head of the FAO'S Trade Policy Service in Rome. "If we have another world food crisis, and you have a poor country where food is produced by foreign investors and then repatriated, that is ethically and political tricky," Hallam warns.

Those ethical quandaries have not prompted restraint on the part of other outside investors moving into Africa to exploit its agricultural potential. Several European companies have leased land during the past two years to grow crops for food and biofuels (though on a far smaller scale than Daewoo's plans in Madagascar), including the British company Sun Biofuels, which is planting biofuel crops in Ethiopia, Mozambique and Tanzania. (See pictures of Ethiopia's harvest of hunger.)

Africa's fertile soil certainly appeals to the countries of the oil-rich Persian Gulf, whose vast deserts force them to import most of their food. "The gulf states have an incredible surplus to invest, and now that the old economies are facing recession, they are looking at Africa," says Marie Bos, an analyst at the Gulf Research Center in Dubai. Although such wealthy countries as South Korea and the gulf states are easily able to pay for food imports, this turmoil on global food markets may have increased the incentive for food-importing countries to secure their own sources of supply.

"[Food-importing countries] have lost trust in trade because of the price crisis this year," says Joachim von Braun, director of the International Policy Food Research Institute in Washington.

For African governments, the incentive to sign deals like the one between Madagascar and Daewoo is equally clear. Millions of African farmers lack money for fertilizer, basic tools, fuel and transport infrastructure to efficiently grow crops and get them to market. While international organizations have plowed billions into health and education, agriculture in Africa has lagged badly, hugely exacerbating the food crisis of the past year. "These governments are desperate to get capital into agriculture," says von Braun, who believes the drive by giant companies to lock up land deals could benefit poor African countries whose governments negotiate wisely.

Although Daewoo plans to export the yield of the land it is leasing in Madagascar, it plans to invest about $6 billion over the next 20 years to build the port facilities, roads, power-plants and irrigation systems necessary to support its agribusiness there, and that will create thousands of jobs for Madagascar's unemployed. And jobs will help the people of Madagascar earn money to buy their own food — even if it is imported.
**************************************************
! Get Yours !
Obugi

DeepThought
Dec 4, 2008, 04:05 AM
Ogugi:

I'm surprised you can be this blase or whatever o, more like pretending not to know. Hmmmm.

What you've outlined in terribly impractical. A violent insurrection stands a better chance, believe me.......if you can find collaborators.

Its not that I don't know or want to pretend. Its just that unlike what appears to be the situation with you, I'm just not ready to give up on Nigerians. I may not care that much for Nigeria, but I sure do care about Nigerians and believe that since we're not yet ready to willingly do the things that need to be done, we'll eventually be painfully forced by circumstances to get our heads straigten out some day.

Every thing you've written to me, though true seems like an abdication of responsibility and hope. Luckily, I and most people I know don't share that philosophy.

It may take 40 year or it may take 400 years but things do change.Situtations change , societies change and people evolve. O.K, I'm not saying I want it to take 400 or even 40 years ( I'll be satisfied with 10 years)

Just a scant year ago, I for one didn't see the election of an Obama in the United States comming. Why should we give up hope on Nigerians , Africa or the Black race just because things at the moment admittedly seem so hopeless?

10 years ago, would you have predicted that the peaceful people of the Niger Delta would be taking up guns to fight the Federal government of Nigeria?

With hope and the willingness to do whatever is necessary, what may be impractical today may be very practical tomorrow and its important to be prepared. We must and should know exactly what to do and precisely how to do it. We must have various plans and detailed blueprints of what to do when the opportunity presents itself or when the time comes..


Those in control of Nigeria know what you know.
Yes. And even more than I know.
Nevertheless the most constant thing we know about history is change.


You have to understand that 99.9999% of people in Nigeria have an instinctive understanding of what's going on even if they can't spell it out coherently. They want it like this because they hope to eventually benefit from it. Every teenager and adult in Nigeria is living for the day they can attach themselves to the system and get their own crumb or big piece of cake.

True.
But the time will come (sooner than we think) when there will be no more big piece of the cake , nor crumbs to benefit from. And it will come in ways that will suprise us.

At this rate, I don't forsee Nigeria lasting forever. In fact, I'll be shocked if Nigeria lasts more than another 40 years. The successors that will emerge from the ashes had better know what they are doing.

People had better prepare themselves for anything.

Obugi
Dec 9, 2008, 01:35 PM
All,

Looks like the govts of Africa are giving away the land...... for a good price this time. Since Africans can't grow their own food, let foreigners come and grow it for us.

It's a spreading philosophy. Nigeria, Tanzania, Kenya. Hmmmmm. Even Ethiopia, geez, can Ethiopian land grow anything?

Land is available, but African Negroes can't utilize it for their own prosperity !!!!! :eek:

:source Africa's Land for Food Programs (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=5773&edition=2&ttl=20081209142509)

What a people!!!!

Nero, its only 99 year leases. I hope you're alive to see that grand awakening after a century of what do you call it - stupidity, incompetence, risk aversion, waiting for God...who knows?

They should just invite foreigners to come take over Africa. I mean just come and govern the place for 99 years, at least the future generations will have a chance at a decent life.

But there is hope from people like this: One Man Shows the Way in Malawi. (http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0201/p01s03-woaf.html)

And his comments in this article are telling. Africa's "educated" classes are the biggest problem.

! Get Yours !
Obugi.

charles4u
Dec 10, 2008, 05:31 PM
This is serious...

But whats really wrong with us Africans and most especially those in power (leaders)?

I just don't understand why all what African leaders do is destruction and they can see that But no changes and no sign that they will make a better change.

Obugi
Nov 20, 2009, 01:57 AM
Nero,

Solutions.......are we ready to encourage those who dare to take the risks to implement controversial solutions?

Here are Bukola Saraki's Zimbabwean farmers, 4 years later.

*******************************************
LINK: NY Times Update on Zim Farmers In Nigeria (http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/11/19/world/international-uk-nigeria-zimbabwe-farmers.html)

Excerpt:

Africa's most populous nation of more than 140 million people, Nigeria imports about $3 billion worth of food annually and has been trying to boost its self-sufficiency.

Farmers from South Korea, Kuwait and the United States have also arrived in Kwara state, some 400 km (250 miles) northwest of the commercial hub Lagos, which is keen to attract more investors and help Nigeria end its import reliance.

Hoping Zimbabwe's loss might be its gain, Nigeria gave each farmer 1,000 hectares of land under a 25-year renewable lease in Shonga, the hub of the state's commercial agriculture project.

Less than five years on, 80 percent of the land is under cultivation and the farmers have asked for more.

"We arrived to virgin bush. We were basically just given GPS points, told to mark them out, clear the bush and find water, build the house, build the sheds, and import cattle," Reid said.

"It was right from the grassroots and it was fun. We all lived in tents for a while," he said.

Hundreds of tonnes of cassava, maize and soya beans are harvested for both local consumption and export markets.

Graham Hatty, 70, is the chairman of the New Nigerian Farmers Associations, made up mostly of white Zimbabweans. :lol::lol::twisted::lol::lol: He was once famous for the winter wheat crop he grew in Zimbabwe.


************************************************** ****

We haven't finished crying about the first era of colonialism, now the second era is creeping in. Nigeria is done, let Oyibo hurry and recolonize this godforsaken place!!!

I hope we don't miss the chance to intermarry and interbreed with the Caucasians and produce some Africans with some level of useful intelligence.

I was going to the Mosque and I saw a White man.....:shake:

!Get Yours!
Obugi.

superego
Nov 20, 2009, 02:08 AM
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Ishola Taiwo
Nov 20, 2009, 12:14 PM
Very interesting thread. No wonda I missed it though: November 2008 man dey for village. No electricity talk less of internet....

valteena
Nov 20, 2009, 12:27 PM
Very interesting thread. No wonda I missed it though: November 2008 man dey for village. No electricity talk less of internet....

I agree its an interesting thread and wonder how I missed it too.

Obugi
Nov 20, 2009, 12:50 PM
Eja,


Very interesting thread. No wonda I missed it though: November 2008 man dey for village. No electricity talk less of internet....

Chineke....you mean in this year 2009, decades after its invention, no electricity in your village? No internet?

Let me ask, why is your village underdeveloped? :D

Yes, I dey find your trouble :lol::lol::lol:

Seriously though, if what we want is Western living standards, then we ought to invite them to come help us do it since we've proven over the past 50yrs that we can't do it ourselves.

Look at South Africa. It was built by Caucasian ingenuity and exploitation. They have voted in free elections to allow the continued domination of their economy by Caucasians, and Nigerians consider it a worthwhile achievement to obtain a visa to visit and live in South Africa, even if it means living in the worst slums like Hillbrow in JoBorg.

My only condition is that Caucasians should be required to buy their way into Nigeria, the Fed Govt can even give them the money.....compensation must be paid to land owners, no White only ghettos allowed, no cultural denigration like preaching against polygamy or native religions. Racial intermarriage should be allowed and encouraged by tax incentives and other measures.

Allow 50,000 Caucasians into any State in Nigeria as full fledged citizens and see how that place will be transformed by White exploitation to at least South African standards of living in the next 25yrs. If nothing else, we can stop humiliating ourselves for visa to South Africa!

We need Oyibo to come live among us or we'll never make it.

!Get Yours!
Obugi.

Obugi
Apr 27, 2012, 07:21 PM
People,

Another interesting thread.

I wonder where Nero Africanus is these days.

! The Cabal Lives On !
Obugi

superego
Apr 28, 2012, 01:04 AM
thanks katampe ,

however mindset is learned , isnt that the function of education and leadership , in other words the people are what their leaders have made of them.

when you say we have refused to look at stuff realistically are you referring to the ruling class or to nigerians in general?


when you refer to the mind set, does all have to have this mnd set or is t sufficient for the ruling class to have the mind set?

thank you for your reponse i look forward to your answer


Yup. Education and leadership from colonial bassa

As I say- Nigeria(problems and all), made in the UK

emj
Apr 28, 2012, 01:15 AM
Drat and double drat, the poll is closed.....nonsense and spices....

Nero son of Africanus i have a qweshion for u.....

Is Africa a Country or a Continent?:eek:



Btw, only thinking beings can unravel why it's underdeveloped......

Cheerios

superego
Apr 28, 2012, 02:32 AM
..
Btw, only thinking beings can unravel why it's underdeveloped......

Cheerios

Guess we mus ask di white massa then..

chaos.com
Apr 28, 2012, 07:25 AM
Funny how post 62 has skillfully avoided all the pictures of the arabic slave trade and the exploitation of africans by arabs.
I guess the arab massa and his disciples are at work again

superego
Apr 28, 2012, 10:54 AM
Arab and African-on-African slave trade was homogenous. It did not create a retrogression wave of any sig. impact on Eastern Africa(the only area it impacted). If u have evidence to the contrary, please provide...

Studies comparing Western Africa which had no impact whatsoever of Arab slave exploits to Eastern Africa suggest no real cultural destructive effect of Arab and African-on-African slave exploits.

chaos.com
Apr 30, 2012, 08:37 PM
yaaaawnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!

arab massa, never wrong, praise the arabi massa,. arab massa i salute yes sir yes sir, i bow.
In darfur people are still been captured as slaves,, yet it had no impact on africa?

chaos.com
Apr 30, 2012, 08:43 PM
Slave markets and fairs

Enslaved Africans were sold in the towns of the Muslim world. In 1416, al-Maqrizi told how pilgrims coming from Takrur (near the Sénégal River) had brought 1,700 slaves with them to Mecca. In North Africa, the main slave markets were in Morocco, Algiers, Tripoli and Cairo. Sales were held in public places or in souks. Potential buyers made a careful examination of the "merchandise": they checked the state of health of a person who was often standing naked with wrists bound together. In Cairo, transactions involving eunuchs and concubines happened in private houses. Prices varied according to the slave's quality.

Towns and ports involved in the slave trade
North Africa:
Tangier (Morocco)
Marrakech (Morocco)
Algiers (Algeria)
Tripoli (Libya)
Cairo (Egypt)
Aswan (Egypt)
West Africa
Salaga (Ghana)
Aoudaghost (Mauritania)
Timbuktu (Mali)
Gao (Mali)
Bilma (Niger)
Kano (Nigeria)
East Africa:
Bagamoyo (Tanzania)
Zanzibar (Tanzania)
Kilwa (Tanzania)
Sofala (Beira, Mozambique)
Horn of Africa
Assab (Eritrea)
Massawa (Eritrea)
Nefasit (Eritrea)
Zeila (Somalia)
Mogadishu (Somalia)
Berbera (Somalia)
Merka (Somalia)
Hobyo (Somalia)
Kismayo (Somalia)
Gondershe (Somalia)
Arabian Peninsula
Zabīd (Yemen)
Muscat (Oman)
Aden (Yemen)
Socotra (Indian Ocean)
Indian Ocean
Debal (Sindh)
Janjira (India)
Surat (India)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade#Arabic_views_on_African_people