GOD, JESUS & XTIANS: TIME FOR RECONCILIATION?

. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called,

and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses   

  1 Timothy 6         

Sometime ago in 1980, I was on my way back from Eket when our bus stopped at Aba to pick up Onitsha bound passengers.

While waiting for the other passengers, a book vendor suddenly appeared shouting “second world war, second world war”. This attracted the attention of some of the passengers who subsequently bought copies of the book.

 As the vendor turned to leave, I requested to see a copy of the book. It was then I discovered that the book was indeed “Nursing made simple” ELB series.

I got angry and called the vendor a liar. The book was not a lie but the vendor/ salesman was a liar.

Talking about books, all Muslims are commanded to obey all books sent to mankind by God. One of such is the testament of Jesus. These books are believed to be divinely revealed and not the product of the mind of any man living or dead.

It is therefore unbelievable that some popular Nigeria pastors on television will claim that the bible in some sections contained mistakes or errors just to manipulate it to suit their desires.

I wonder why a man will rely on a book, which he claims, contains errors. Can a book divinely written contain errors?  And if we agree with these pastors for the purposes of arriving at a conclusion, what degree of reliance can one place on such a book?

These thoughts were going through my mind when I sent a text message to a Christian friend of mine. In the text I asked him a simple question – if we remove the title of God or son of God given to Jesus by Christians, will there be any damage to Christian faith, belief and practices. Did Jesus premise his message of salvation on his being called God or son of God?

It is  gratifying  to  note  that  Jesus rejected  titles  including "good master". Indeed he confirmed  the  futility in  clinging  to  titles when  he  said  in Mathew 7:21 " Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall  enter into  the kingdom of  heaven; but  he  that  doeth the  will of  my Father  which is  in heaven"

My friend replied,  “Jesus said He and God are the same”. He referred me to John 10:30.

Before I proceed, I will like to state very clearly that this article is not about superiority contest between Islam and Christianity.

It is not also about ridiculing the bible or Jesus.

As a Muslim, I will never do any of such things because Jesus is held in very high esteem in Islam.

This article is about going through the bible to ascertain the truth about the things we hear from our Christian brothers and sisters on a daily basis. Does the bible support the popular claims that Jesus is God or that he is Son of God?

I am aware of the fact that my effort can at best be theoretical because the answer to my worry about why people, for 2000 years have continued to cling to certain claims which are not supported by their book has been provided by both the Bible and the Quran.

 Anyone who breaches the first of all commandments i.e. “Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:” commits a grave sin against God and is eternally cursed.  Such transgressors will have their hearts veiled, deafness in their ears and will not return to the straight path until they desist!

Matthew 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be  called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Passages from the Bible:

This is  the passage that my friend referred to in his response:

  John 10:30:  I and my Father are one.

However  it  appears he  is  not  aware of  John 10:33-35.

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

   34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

   35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

MY RESPONSE

I then called his attention to some passages that affirm the Unity of God and which are contradictory to his position

Some examples are: -

1 John 4:12 (Whole Chapter)
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Mark 10:18 (Whole Chapter)
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Mark 12:29 (Whole Chapter)
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:32 (Whole Chapter)
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Luke 18:19 (Whole Chapter)
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

1 Corinthians 8:4 (Whole Chapter)
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Romans 1:16 (Whole Chapter)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek

Acts 4:24 (Whole Chapter)
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

1 Corinthians 8:6 (Whole Chapter)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Galatians 3:20 (Whole Chapter)
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one

Ephesians 4:6 (Whole Chapter)
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all

1 Timothy 2:5 (Whole Chapter)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

1 John 4:7 (Whole Chapter)
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God

Matthew 19:17 (Whole Chapter)
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

Sons of God?

The following passages are also in the bible in relation to sons of God

Romans 8:14 (Whole Chapter) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God; they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:19 (Whole Chapter) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Hebrews 12:7 (Whole Chapter) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

My friend retorted, “ You have to believe because whoever does not believe is condemned already” 

Let  me  stay  with 1 John 4:12, if  “No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us”.  But  we  saw  Jesus on earth! It  wasn’t until  he  was  to start  the  work  of  God  that  the prophesy of  “the  Spirit of  the  Lord is  upon me…..”:  was  fulfilled

Contradiction?

God is not the author of confusion and His divine revelations are true.  Consequently, there is no contradiction in the bible in relation to the status of Jesus.

Indeed if one reads the bible and treat Jesus as sent by God and not God or His son everything falls into place.  Everything makes sense.

The passages that are translated to contradict other passages are clear and simple to understand.  However, man is mischievous and in his desire to give credence to his theories, or creed  (even when they are wrong) continues to manipulate the bible to suit his desires. It is  these misinterpretations/misrepresentations  that  give rise  to contradictions.  The  book  itself  contains  no  such  contradictions.  From Abraham to Moses, David, Jesus  and  Muhammed,  the  same  message  was  preached – unity  of  God and  the  submission of  man  to Him as  well  as  the  worship of  Him  alone.

 As long as men manipulate the bible, interfere with  its  divine nature and translate it to suit their purposes, theories will continue to be propounded. Such men and women will spend their entire lifetime defending and selling such doctrines instead of focusing on the real message of Jesus.

Perhaps Jesus had this in mind when he said:

Luke 13:28 - There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Luke 13:29 -   And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south,  and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.  

So there is no contradiction in the bible as far as the relationship between Jesus and God is concerned.  Indeed the mission statement of Jesus gives a very clear and unambiguous position in this regard “ the Spirit of the Lord is upon me.  He hath anointed me.”

WATCHTOWER

In an  article published in  1989 and titled Is  God  Always  Superior  to  Jesus  published Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site,  it  was  stated  that JESUS never claimed to be God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way—not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.

In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.

Jesus Distinguished From God

TIME and again, Jesus showed that he was a creature separate from God and that he, Jesus, had a God above him, a God whom he worshiped, a God whom he called "Father." In prayer to God, that is, the Father, Jesus said, "You, the only true God." (John 17:3) At John 20:17 he said to Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (RS, Catholic edition) At 2 Corinthians 1:3 the apostle Paul confirms this relationship: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." Since Jesus had a God, his Father, he could not at the same time be that God.

The apostle Paul had no reservations about speaking of Jesus and God as distinctly separate: "For us there is one God, the Father, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 8:6, JB) The apostle shows the distinction when he mentions "the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels." (1 Timothy 5:21, RS Common Bible) Just as Paul speaks of Jesus and the angels as being distinct from one another in heaven, so too are Jesus and God.

Jesus' words at John 8:17, 18 are also significant. He states: "In your own Law it is written, 'The witness of two men is true.' I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me." Here Jesus shows that he and the Father, that is, Almighty God, must be two distinct entities, for how else could there truly be two witnesses?

Jesus further showed that he was a separate being from God by saying: "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." (Mark 10:18, JB) So Jesus was saying that no one is as good as God is, not even Jesus himself. God is good in a way that separates him from Jesus. 

In  concluding  the  article,  they  wrote:

THE Bible's position is clear. Not only is Almighty God, Jehovah, a personality separate from Jesus but He is at all times his superior. Jesus is always presented as separate and lesser, a humble servant of God. That is why the Bible plainly says that "the head of the Christ is God" in the same way that "the head of every man is the Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:3) And this is why Jesus himself said: "The Father is greater than I."—John 14:28, RS, Catholic edition.

The fact is that Jesus is not God and never claimed to be. This is being recognized by an increasing number of scholars. As the Rylands Bulletin states: "The fact has to be faced that New Testament research over, say, the last thirty or forty years has been leading an increasing number of reputable New Testament scholars to the conclusion that Jesus . . . certainly never believed himself to be God."

The Bulletin also says of first-century Christians: "When, therefore, they assigned [Jesus] such honorific titles as Christ, Son of man, Son of God and Lord, these were ways of saying not that he was God, but that he did God's work."

Thus, even some religious scholars admit that the idea of Jesus' being God opposes the entire testimony of the Bible. There, God is always the superior, and Jesus is the subordinate servant.

Attributes of God

According to Quran 2: 255, the following  are some of the attributes of God. Any being that does not posses these attributes cannot qualify to be regarded as THE ONE TRUE GOD that Jesus referred to in several passages of the bible.

Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

The Watchtower under  the  heading  Jesus  Had Limited Knowledge  wrote “

WHEN Jesus gave his prophecy about the end of this system of things, he stated: "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mark 13:32, RS, Catholic edition) Had Jesus been the equal Son part of a Godhead, he would have known what the Father knows. But Jesus did not know, for he was not equal to God.

'New Testament research has been leading an increasing number of scholars to the conclusion that Jesus certainly never believed himself to be God.' —Bulletin of the John Rylands Library

Similarly, we read at Hebrews 5:8 that Jesus "learned obedience from the things he suffered." Can we imagine that God had to learn anything? No, but Jesus did, for he did not know everything that God knew. And he had to learn something that God never needs to learn—obedience. God never has to obey anyone.”

BLASPHEMY

Some of the statements  that we hear on a daily basis are:

§        Have you given your life to Jesus?  When indeed Jesus, according to Luke 23:46 said “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” more than 2000years ago.

§        Thank you Jesus!  When indeed Jesus said (a) Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. (b) For Thine (God) is the Kingdom, Power and Glory (Lord’s prayer) (c) Luke 18: 43  "And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying and all the people when they saw it gave praise unto God; Mark 2:12 : they glorified God(d) Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven (e) John 8:50  And I  seek not  mine  own glory: there is  one  that  seeketh and judgeth.

§        To modern day Christians, anyone who is not a Christian is not saved whereas Jesus never mentioned such a word John 8: 51 Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. He did not use the word Christian.

§         Indeed the common words in those days were Pharisees, scribes, Jews, Gentiles etc.   The word Christianity was coined by unbelievers at Antioch (Check Acts of Apostles) after the ascension of Christ.

It is apparent that our friends are not aware of   Luke 13:28 - There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust ou         

Unfortunately our Christian brethren have consigned God to the passenger’s seat whereas God was the driver, the car owner and indeed everything to Jesus.

CONCLUSION

I have nothing to add except to state that there is an urgent need for our Christians friends to go back to the bible with a view to acquiring true knowledge about Jesus Christ and the message he preached and to do away with man-made doctrines, which indeed are transgressions against God. These man-made doctrines are indeed contradictory to the teachings of Christ as contained in the bible.   He premised salvation upon adherence to the laws and the testament, which he brought (captured in Mathew 5 to 7)

Indeed only the truth can set us free.  Not dogmas and clichés.

Please note  that I am not talking about religion here but about the true teachings of Jesus and the punishment that awaits those who break the first of all commandments i.e. God is One.  Please repent and desist from committing acts of blasphemy.  That is the first step towards salvation.

As for those who will insult me, I take solace in the words of Jesus as recorded in Mathew 5: 10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Thanks for having read this article

Taslim Anibaba (FCA).                                                              7th July  2006

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Opinions expressed are solely that of the author

Robot  Villager

# 1 GOD, JESUS & XTIANS: TIME FOR RECONCILIATION? . 12...Read the full article. Posted by Robot| 07.07.2006 11:35

Joseph Jibunoh

# 2 I strongly believe that this site is not the proper platform for a such provocative 'treaties" on the Christain religion vis a vis Islam. Mr, Anibaba said he did not intend to offend Christians by his article, but my fear is that if I or any other concerned Christian should reply in such an equal tone, some moslems especially in northern Nigeria will simply start an orgy of killings against Christians who may never have known any thing about this article. We all know that moslems generally find it difficult to tolerate criticism of their religion and will fight at the slightest provocation. That is the reason, why this site must not be allowed for such provocatve publications. The innocent mus not die becuase of these issues beacuse as long as this earth remains, no amount of argument or justifications by non Christians can make them to leave their faith. Moslems should be free to believe in whatever their religion says and same should apply to christians and other religions. God in his wisdom has created the earth as sphere of different species, Caucasians, Mogoloids, Negroids, Chinese, Arabs, Europeans, Africans, Letcetera. et everything and everybody await the end time when God will judge everyman for what he did on earth. Posted by Joseph Jibunoh| 07.07.2006 12:33

Auspicious  Villager

# 3 Tas, Why for God's sake would you buy a book from a vendor chanting "2nd Word War" in 1980? Just thought I might ask quickly..let me return to finish reading your treatise. Good, Tas was wise enough not to buy the 'WWII' book from that cheat of a vendor... But those are interesting (if not poignant) posers raised in your article. All I can say about Faith/worship in general is that it is almost impossible to draw a line..or find the perfect (right?) way to practice your faith - whichever faith you practice. No wonder then, why they say "religion is the opium of the masses". The question of faith and its antecedant beliefs remain the most controversial subject mankind has known. It is the Genesis of all major wars known to man. Even Islam has its slight(?) variations in beliefs and practices; the Shias and the Sunni muslims etc. And we have seen there really isn't any love lost between the aforementioned - Iraq is a living example. So, faith in general is man's quest to finding answers to the many questions of life. Everyone interpretes what he 'encounters' the way he sees it or ..the way that's most convinient for him(!) And there lies the origin of the problems of interpretations of the scriptures. Little wonder then, why a good number of people are opting for 'siddon-look' or a total rejection of the idea of organized religion. And some have chosen to be Agnostics..since there are too many questions vis-a-vis contradictions about what is right and wrong in religion - especially when today, many pastors and evangelists or Xtian 'bruvas' out there are the worst examples for good comportment in our societies. People will continue to seek answers and to interprete events and life in general in different ways. The issue of the debate over interpretation of faith has been with man for centuries..and it is bound to remain for as long as man seeks an answer to the questions of life. My idea is to be honest in whatever belief you have but never cease to seek answers and ask questions. You might just be climbing the wrong tree. Posted by Auspicious| 07.07.2006 13:23

DoubleWahala  Villager

# 4 Taslim, This is a well researched piece, and I thank you for showing the seeming contradictions in the teachings/readings of the Scriptures. As a seemingly enlightened Moslem, I am sure you realise that Christianity and Islam essentially espouse similar religious doctrines, with one notable exception; the status of Jesus Christ. Moslems do not recognise him as the "Son of God", although his life and teachings are generally acknowledged. The issues you raised will remain an area of contention (for and against), for eons of time. This is because, somehow, in the name of "faith", natural and God-given intellectual enquiry is heavily discouraged. "How dare you question the nature of God"? "You must be an Infidel" They'll only be too happy to tell you off in the above (or similar) terms. Personally, when it comes to issues like religious faith, I keep my counsel. Somehow, intense emotions are always stirred, which increasingly lead to violence, especially with Moslems. Can you imagine what the reaction of a typical, average Moslem would be, if a Christian openly questioned, or rejected the accepted nature and status of Prophet Mohammed? Sofri-sofri, my brother. DoubleWahala Posted by DoubleWahala| 07.07.2006 14:20

Fjord  Villager

# 5 Taslim: hmnnn... where to begin? I can hold a bit of brief for the Christians here, but I'll pick the issues. The bible refers to Adam (yeah, same Adam, the first man, eh) as a "son of God"; it also does refer to the angels as "sons of God" (Christians aren't very keen on accepting that Satan, yeah, the "bad guy" was one of God's sons too; this may carry the implication that God has not been a very good father, if we think a bit about it: heck, his first children, Adam and Eve pissed him off so much he got them messed up; and Satan, son of God - no less - made himself God's chief nemesis; but, I digress), so, you may begin to see what "sonship" entails. When pressed on this point, Christians will tend to tell you Jesus is a "special" son of God (special in the sense of being God's only begotten...); this view is mostly advocated by fringe Christian groups (like the Jehovah's Witnesses you mentioned). Mainstream Christianity holds Jesus and God (and the Holy Spirit) to be a Trinity. You will find examples of Trinity in other ancient religions. I think Christians will maintain that the Trinity defies regular logic, that something transcendental is needed to figure this out; that God (perhaps via the Holy Spirit - HS from now) must help you to figure it. This shouldn't be strange to even you, afterall, the sacred text of the religion you profess was from God himself, not so? So you're familiar with the concept of God talking to people. That's a tiny bit about sonship, we may return to it. Not to forget, "sonship" was extended to the rest of us - hurray! - if we're led by spirit. I see you had to refer to Jehovah's Witnesses to drive home your point; bad move, eh. Mainstream Christians aren't very fond of Jehovah's Witnesses; neither are they of the Christians, eh, nor the rest of us. They're at the wacky end of Christianity; at the fundamental level, there isn't much difference between them and the Taliban fiends, except for the huge difference (hehehe) that they're pacifist. And that brings us to the name you invoke "Jehovah". You guessed it, the Jehovah's Witnesses have the TradeMark on that one. See, it's quite blasphemous to "regular" Christians to have to read that Jesus isn't God; and it is to fringe groups like Jehovah's Witnesses that Jesus is equated to God; but we can be happy that such blasphemy carries no sentence of death, at least not in this present world. The God of the Christians (not of the Jehovah's Witnesses) reserves fiery punishment for later, which is quite commendable; hey, no convicted person wouldn't fancy a suspended sentence. Of course, on the other side of the Abrahamic faiths divide (actually, on the one third side), things aren't quite as rosy; Infidels get no suspended sentence; in the case of a true Jihad, you're very dead. As to God learning sth: you may surprised that the God of the Hebrews (that's the bible's old testament God) was sometimes quite reasonable. Take for instance, when in a fit of rage God said he was going to kill the Israelites (whom he'd just delivered from Egypt). It was Prophet Moses who reasoned with God, via an appeal to logic and a sense of shame, that it'll be folly to do that since the Egyptians will know and laugh; god mellowed. That's not the only time. Abraham had pulled this reasoning thing with God before; God could be said to have learned some. So a "learning" God isn't much of a strange thing. There's a bit of humour in your statement that "our Christian brethren have consigned God to the passenger's seat whereas God was the driver, the car owner and indeed everything to Jesus"; interesting, eh, since the bible says God has been resting since he finished the tasks of creating the heavens and the earth (hey, you'd need to rest for a looong time of you did too!); so it's quite appropriate to be comfy in the owner's corner. It is healthy that you're discussing the status of Jesus the Christ (the controversy generated by a popular fictional group hasn't done the the "Jesus is God" thing much good; it's not like the picture of Jesus the Christ smooching Mary Magdalene will be palatable to most Christians; but it's notable that some Christians scholars have argued - with credibility - that even that wouldn't do too much harm to Jesus' status as a divine being) and encouraging most Christians to revise their belief about it; very well; I can assure you no harm will come to you; no fatwa of death; only emotional appeals and prayers for your lost soul. Will you as a Muslim accept such in respect of your Prophet? Take for instance the Hadiths; hello! Do you really think they all make sense? I got quite a laugh when I read what Mohammed (pbuh) said to do during an eclipse; very funny. And those absurdly laughable pronouncements, you think God could've written that stuff? And, what's it with Allah referring to himself as "We"? Is that the royal "We", or, is there a dose of schizophrenia there, or what? Anyways, the point is that it appears your religion does not accept the kind of veiled criticism you're engaging in. Not that that's your fault; just a bit of sth for you to think about. . Posted by Fjord| 07.07.2006 14:57

ula-lisa  Villager

# 6 Taslim Anibaba, I must commend you for your deligent search for answers. If indeed your search is for righteousness, then, the Bible says you are blessed. If however, as most persons with much learning, it is to show off the knowledge or to argue POINTS OF RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE, then knowledge would be said to puff up and may be an impediment to pure faith which is the real curency of Godliness (that kind of explains why the poor and unlearned are usually much more advanced in the issues of faith). 1. I am a Christian in the Jesus defined way of the term. You need to be one to know what I mean. But it is a journey that all can embark on if they willingly seek and when they find, submit to the counsel of God. 2. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. It is hard for instance to explain colors to one blind from birth. The first step of moving from death to life must be taken. We are all born, dead in tresspases. 3. You must be born-again. (John 3:3). That is a necessary first step to begin to understand spiritual truths. Nicodemus being addressed there, was a scholar, he was a member of the Sanhedran, the Jewish Ruling Council. Neophytes in religion did not sit on this high board. Yet the first step Jesus explained to him was to be born again. 4. Unless a man is born again, he shall not even see the kingdom of heaven. That is the first start. Find out what it is to be born again if you are really sincere in your search for truth, then the rest of the pieces would fall in place. Every other argument is conjecture. Posted by ula-lisa| 07.07.2006 15:27

emj  Villager

# 7 Indeed if one reads the bible and treat Jesus as sent by God and not God or His son everything falls into place. Everything makes sense. Taslim omo Anibaba----welcome, read ur article from the first line to the last, and can see where u are headed. You shld have given your article the header--"Jesus is not God or his Son". The header "God, Jesus&Xtians:Time for Reconciliation is very deceptive. My friend, nice try------will like u to read Fjord and Ula's post properly. Your postulations,fabulations and parambulations ---dabbling into things that are way beyond ur intellect and understanding will not earn u a FATWA but a shake of the head. If it were to be a christian that tried this type of stunt, there would have been shouts of abuge, akacheshi, infidel, so many somersaults,etc etc Anyways, i will pray for u to receive divine understanding Posted by emj| 07.07.2006 18:29

oluye  Villager

# 8 Taslim, the issue you are raising here borders on trinity. I am never one to turn down an opportunity to witness, so I will offer some insight. The first question I would like to ask you is why does the Bible say " the Lord our God is one"? Evidently there had been reasons for the Jews to come to the understanding that multiplicity occurs as pertains to God. The statement came to let the Israelites realise that despite the obvious polarities within the person of Jehovah, he is still one. God, the one God is a community of personalities, eternally self sufficient. Muslims always think about the" three" aspect of trinity they never think of the "unity" aspect. Christians affirm that the one God has three co eternal personalities, each personality honouring the others. The Father is the mental personality, thus you will find that He initiates all things, He alone knows the day and hour when the world would end. The Son was the WORD in the old testament. As the physical personality, all things are created through Him. If God will manifest physically what you get is Jesus. Imagine the mental, physical and spiritual worlds as three realms in which objects take on different manifestations. Now imagine one God peircing through, extending his one being through all the realms so that in each realm He manifests. Thus there is God in heaven, on earth and in the Spirit world. The one in heaven will have an ethereal manifestation, the one in the spirit will have spiritual manifestation and the earthly manifestation will be physical, nevertheless it will be one God. Because the eternal abode of that one being is in heaven, if the earthly extension will refer to the base from which He extends, He will say"My Father(root) in heaven." However if you doubt His authority, he will tell you "I and my Father are one!" When that aspect of God had to manifest in the flesh to do what only God could do, He became the Son. He created everything, the redemption of physical creation is therefore His duty. God had things He needed to do for men, men had things they needed to do for God, and man needed to be redeemed from the evil angelic powers who had held him and his world captive. Under the law it was impossible for God and man to fulfil their duties. Sin had to be removed, perfect obidience had to be dispayed and the devil needed to be outsmarted. The truth is that Jesus Himself, as the physical projection of the one God, is a trinity. He is the Son of God, the Son of Man, and the Messiah. His name "Jesus" means "Jehovah is salvation" and His second name "Emmanuel" means "God is with us." God had to be with us to give us the salvation that only Jehovah himself could grant. If Jesus were anything less than God, he could not overcome Lucifer(satan, devil) who was an anointed cherub, an angel of the highest level. As you would guess, the Holy Spirit is the spiritual or pneumatic personality. While the physical manifestation of God was limnited by space and time, the spiritual personality is like wind, everywhere. He is the one who imparts the victory won by Jesus and manages the church. I can go on. Trinity is a very profound mystery. It affects our nature. It is the master theme for creation. My intention is not to convert you, though it would be my joy. I mere ly want you be cautious, the fact that you don't understand something doesn't mean that it is wrong. Knowledge that is beyond us cannot be comprehended unless we first humbly believe it and then we begin to see,. May God open your eyes. Finally, the problem was that man fell. From the best relationship any creation may have with God to the worst . God's galaxy reacts to punish His enemies. The question of religion is "how do we get back into God's good favour." There are many satanist religions that say "simply remain God's enemy, declare war against Him punish His creations and we will bless you" One may choose to follow these and take God as an enemy. We also have religions who say "bribe his officials", so we have religions that identify the principalities and powers which God has put in place and bride them. Iron and dog for Ogun, Oil for Sango etc. One may choose to merely mak friends with principalities and powers whom God will eventually judge. Thirdly, it is better to be God's servant rather than be His enemy. In His mercy God has permitted this too. Thus the prophet Mohammed(Peace be upon his name) declared that he is a servant of God, and he calls fallen man to become God's servants, like the angels. One could choose this too. I believe it has eternal rewards too- a managed relationship is better than bad relationship, though it is not a restored relationship. Finally, God revealed the real truth about what He wants man to be. Jesus is the truth. God wants to make us His children, to make us extensions of Himself. To live in us. Only a son can impart the right of sonship to you. God did what he had to do to make this possible, He became His own Son( once again because it is possible for God to have multiple personalities). One may choose also to become a child of God. Most religions tell you the truth if you are not ready to step up or step down your relationship with God, simply don't tamper with the faith of others. But honestly, wouldn't you rather become a son? God hasd made that way too. Jehovah himself worked it out, no middle men. Posted by oluye| 07.07.2006 18:38

Palamedes  Villager

# 9 I thought that NVS is a religion free zone. All these quotes attributed to a Jew - in a book that was written about 1400 to 1800 years ago, by sources (Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, John and Jude) close to Jesus, trying to cash in after his death 50 year later. People from the Middle-East are notorious – and even today, for their exaggeration; how accurate, therefore, are all these long tales, 50 years after death. Further, most of these sources would have been in their 70s when they wrote their own version of the new testament; and we all know the tendency of old people to embellish events in their lives – listen to any second world war veteran and hear how he single-handedly capture a battalion of the enemy. Furthermore, these are primitive people by today standard; they have nothing to teach us. If you want to take over the world, the best strategy is to take over religion or the "White House" or both. I am inclined to believe that religion is the work of the devil, which it uses to control and cause havoc on earth. I can not understand why perfectly normal, straight, well-educated, logical and intelligent people suddenly became imbeciles when it comes to religion. Why? Here is my advice: don't waste your time trying to please an imaginary God; the maggots are waiting for you and me six feet under ground. Posted by Palamedes| 07.07.2006 19:00

superego  Villager

# 10 =emj>Indeed if one reads the bible and treat Jesus as sent by God and not God or His son everything falls into place. Everything makes sense. Taslim omo Anibaba----welcome, read ur article from the first line to the last, and can see where u are headed. You shld have given your article the header--"Jesus is not God or his Son". The header "God, Jesus&Xtians:Time for Reconciliation is very deceptive. My friend, nice try------will like u to read Fjord and Ula's post properly. Your postulations,fabulations and parambulations ---dabbling into things that are way beyond ur intellect and understanding will not earn u a FATWA but a shake of the head. If it were to be a christian that tried this type of stunt, there would have been shouts of abuge, akacheshi, infidel, so many somersaults,etc etc Anyways, i will pray for u to receive divine understanding Lies, or Ignorance, or deceit? Critisism is always posted about Islam too, and we tolerate, discuss and address, it. See here example, that I a Moslem have been gently discussing- http://www.nigeriavillagesquare.com/board/showthread.php?t=21170&page=3 That Moslems do not tolerate Insolent Insult and disrespect of God, doesnt mean we are not open for fair fact based critism and correction. To claim such posts arent made against Islam everyday here, as shown above and in other forums/medias.To claim Moslems do not absorb and tolerate and recieve such is Ignorant, Lies and/or deceit. Why do I feel I am wasting my time here? For all interested, I made a website that answers a lot of issues related to this thread- www.understandingchrist.com , feel free to browse it. Posted by superego| 07.07.2006 19:27

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