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THE IBB INTERVIEW!
General
Ibrahim Badamasi Babangida, Retired, acting in concert with other
ambitious officers in the Nigerian Army seized the reigns of political
leadership in the largest black nation on earth on August 27, 1985. For
eight years he held on with rugged, sometimes brutal force to the
leadership of the nation which struggled with repeated leadership
failures and often complacent citizenry. Many Nigerians felt that the
country’s freedom was earned on a platter of gold. In order to earn
true freedom, Nigerians had to fight a civil war in which many
atrocities were committed. But real freedom continued to elude the
people of Nigeria. The nation continued to wonder from one form of
dictatorship to the other. The eight years of Babangida’s rule was a
wild-goose chase to leave a lasting legacy. Nigerians did everything
they were told to do to make his personal ambition become true, however
there seems to be something predestined about him while he had the
opportunity to become the Moses of his suffering people, he wasted it
all. In this rare interview anchored by one of the best hand in modern
Journalism, HENRY UGBOLUE, of People’s Monthly Magazine, a partnering media organization of Pointblanknews.com,
tries to hold the one time strong man of Nigeria accountable for his
tenure as an unelected leader of the nation that is still seeking
healing from the hemorrhage of confused decisions taken (and sometimes
not taken). His failed attempt to use the ballot box to recapture
Nigeria’s Presidency was also revisited. As usual General Babangida who
once described himself as the evil genius did not disappoint us.
Excerpts:
You have just celebrated your 66 th birthday; how does it feel really to be 66? I mean, do you now feel like an old man?
First of all, I remain grateful to God for sparing my life to see 66
years on earth. I fee I’m old but a lot of people say it is in the mind
but I feel 66 is quite an advanced age in one’s life. So I feel I am
getting older; I am ageing.
Were there targets you set for your self; that you must accomplish before attaining your currentage?
Well I think… if I take it back to when I was growing up, I had some
dreams of what I wanted to be but most importantly, when I joined the
military, I set some targets for my self. For example, when I got
commissioned I became a Second Lieutenant with a Platoon Commander or a
Troop Commander; so my first target then was to be the commanding
officer of the unit which I found myself and it was called the Squadron
at that time. So as a Second Lieutenant, I wanted to be a Squadron
Leader, we called those commanding Squadrons those days Leaders. So I
wanted to be a Leader and God in his own wisdom ensured that I held
that position and within that organization or command as we called it,
I moved again to become Corps Commander. At that level, you start
thinking of becoming the head of the army. So after being a Corp
Commander, God was also kind and I became the Chief of Army Staff and
from there I became the President and after being the President to
retirement. I think God has been wonderful as far as I am concerned.
So, largely the targets you set for your self have been met?
Yes, largely.
Alright, but some us are aware of a particular target of yours that have not been met…
And that is?
Well, but for certain developments that arose you would have returned
to office as Nigeria’s President before your 66th birthday. Returning
to the Presidency, this time as a democratically elected leader of
Nigeria appeared to be one target you were all too poised to meet but
shockingly you aborted the process mid way by stepping down for the man
who currently occupies the exalted office, Alhaji Umar Musa Yar’Adua
just before the primary of your party, the PDP. Why did you opt out of
the race suddenly?
Well, I think those targets that I have achieved or met influenced me
tremendously in taking the decision I took. I was there before like you
rightly pointed out. I was there from 1985 to 1993. I represented this
country. But then, I know that my ascension to the exalted office was
through another means; we shot ourselves into power through the barrel
of the gun but all the same, I ran the country. So, when I set out to
aspire to occupy the office again, this time as a democratically
elected leader, I was determined also not to go below certain
behaviors. I would not like a situation at my age and having been the
President before, maybe to now see me competing against somebody I
considered a brother, somebody I considered a friend. These were
dilemmas borne out of principle and I try as much as possible to live
by those morals. So, that was what happened.
There are indeed suggestions that you jumped out of the race before
being pushed; that already the ‘system’ had determined the direction
the baton will go. Could it be true that you merely read correctly the
hand-writing on the wall especially within the PDP, your party?
Well, I think… don’t forget that there were what… fifty political
parties at the time we were doing the primaries and I could have jumped
into another party which is viable. I could have contested on another
platform I liked. But then, I would also not like to be seen as an
opportunist, somebody who belongs to a party and because of this or
that he is moving out. There are so many people who change party over
trivial things and I thought it was not the right thing to do. So I
stuck with the party, went along with the party where they wanted and I
felt satisfied.
You stepped down for the current President. Looking back now, do you feel justified that you took the right decision?
Yes, I believe I did. I believe I have taken the right decision and I
am also happy that he has not disappointed me so far. He is a very
meticulous person, he studies before he acts, he is not the type of
President who takes decisions on impulse. He studies the situation and
he acts without necessarily making any noise about it. So I think I
feel justified and satisfied that he is doing very well. Sir, I want to take you slightly back. Many Nigerians would want to
know if the former President, Chief Olusegun Obasanjo applied any form
of intimidation, either directly or subtly, to get you to opt out of
the presidential race?
No, no there was no intimidation because we discussed it. I discussed
it with him and I did mention to him my moral dilemma and like the
elder statesmen that we were, we looked at the pros and the cons; we
looked at the options that were available and open to us but don’t
forget that the final decision is entirely mine, so I decided to take a
decision I deemed appropriate.
We know the role you played in bringing President Obasanjo to power in
1999. He was there for eight years. Looking back, do you feel justified
that you played a pivotal role in his emergence or any regrets?
Well over eight years ago when we worked for an Obasanjo presidency, I
advanced about four or five arguments why I felt ex-President Obasanjo
was the right candidate. I looked at the prevailing situation in the
country then; that for a country like Nigeria what we needed was
stability and by virtue of his experience as a former Head of State he
should know what to do to provide that stability and I think to be
fair, to a great extent we had semblance of stability. Secondly, I said
he is a very strong believer in the unity of this country and that he
displayed as President. He really believes that Nigeria should be one
country and he is prepared to fight to make sure that this country
remains one. Thirdly, I also believe that whoever gets there must be
somebody once you hear his name people will say we have heard that name
before. So his name, his activities cut across the whole spectrum of
the country so everybody knows him. People knew him: he was this or
that before. People would be ready to say give him a chance he was
there before. And fourthly, which is most important, he does not get
intimidated by the media because the media can intimidate you out of
office. He is not the type to be intimidated. Those were the arguments
that I just put forward.
Eight years after, did Obasanjo meet your high expectations?
Eight years after, he still maintains those attributes that I saw in him
And talking of real governance now, expectations were equally high. Would you say ex-President Obasanjo met those expectations?
He is a human being and governance or government is a continuous
process. There are a lot of things may be, that they did that I would
have done differently.
For example, the Obasanjo government made a huge show of its reform
programmes but one easily recalls that your government also talked
extensively about reforms. You had your Economic Team just like the
Obasanjo regime had an Economic Team. And talking about continuity in
government are you surprised that several years after you left office,
we are still sloganeering about reforms, Economic Team and so on?
I am happy that what I talked about or what my administration talked
about twenty years ago, provided the bases or the platform on which all
subsequent reforms in this country are being carried out. Because like
you rightly said, I agree, the rest is slogan; nothing has changed. We
were the first to deregulate the economy; we were the first to try to
give initiative to the private sector to make our economy private
sector-driven. We showed the way in privatization and so on. We
provided the platform for the modernization of Nigeria and I feel quite
rightly that may be history will give us credit that every other thing
people are talking about concerning reforms, we started during my
administration and I am happy about that. You may give it different
name and so on, but we started it.
So to what level did Obasanjo take some of these things you began. Are
you satisfied with the level he took them to, I mean the reforms?
We provided the platform and he tried to build on this platform. They
did not create anything new, maybe apart from the slogan but every
other thing you can trace it to our administration.
Would you say, Sir, that perhaps one of, if not the most disappointing
period for you during the Obasanjo era was when the EFCC arrested your
first son, Muhammed?
No, I think… what I would probably say is that I ran an administration
for eight years and during that eight years what accrued to the Federal
Government, what accrued to us as an administration was about
N565Billion, that is less than what was accruing to the Obasanjo
government in a year. What they were getting in one year, we got less
in eight years. And I know what we achieved with that little amount of
money in eight years; if I had that kind of money maybe we could have
gone places. That, I am absolutely confident about and that is number
one. Number two, the world is made to believe that… and you in the
media got that contraption, that my administration institutionalized
corruption. Now, we know better who institutionalized corruption. So I
am grateful to God and maybe history will eventually vindicate us.
Yes, I was actually talking about your son’s arrest by the EFCC
He is growing up. My children… they all bear one… no, I would not call
it difficulty… the name Babangida is subject to various
interpretations. Those who hate me with a passion will make innocent
people, like children who do not know anything to suffer because of
that name. The poor boy (his son Muhammed) reported himself. They told
him he was wanted and he reported himself; he was not arrested, he was
not coerced and he told them everything he knew which is a sign of
growing up. So far, he has not been charged to court for any crime that
he committed or something... But this happens in a society where people
perceive that “this man must be a thief” and if you are not careful
they will try to make the world believe so only to find out that it is
not so. For the poor boy, I think the incident helped him to grow up;
it helped him to develop to understand the kind of society in which we
live. I think it is an experience as far as I am concerned and as far
as the poor boy is concerned. It is one experience in his life.
Indeed, people have been asking this question: Did you discuss this
apparent onslaught on your person by the EFCC with the former
President, Chief Olusegun Obasanjo?
Quite frankly, I didn’t have to because I knew myself, I knew who I am
and I know what I represent. It is either there is something or there
is none and where there is none, there is nothing you can do about it.
I wanted people to say all these things and I believe that a lot of it,
every part of it was falsehood. And so, let them try it, let them find
out, let them inform the public that this is what we have found out; it
will be good for them to say we suspected this or this and we have
found out. For me, it is good, they suspected me and they did not find
anything. This is not new as far as I am concerned. Perhaps I am now
the most investigated Nigerian alive. I knew very well that for eight
years (of Obasanjo’s Government), I was under investigation. And before
Obasanjo, I was also under investigation. I have become a veteran. I am
the most investigated person in Nigeria.
Okay, let me return once more to President Umar Musa Yar’Adua. You obviously support his government?
Yes, I do
Former Vice President, Atiku Abubakar who was the Presidential
candidate of the AC and General Muhammadu Buhari who flew the flag of
the ANNP in the Presidential election are at the election petition
tribunal. They are both out to set aside the declaration of Yar’Adua as
the winner of the Presidential election. Since you support Yar’Adua and
you are known to be close to the two litigants, would you consider
speaking to them to discontinue with their respective petitions at the
tribunal?
Yes, you are right; I have good rapport with both General Buhari and
Alhaji Atiku Abubakar. We communicate. There is a level of
understanding between me and the two distinguished citizens of this
great country. Don’t forget that both of them, including myself, at a
stage, are politicians; they contested election and they felt that the
elections were not conducted the way they should. Everyone one of them
has the right to believe that he would have been the winner of the
election. Maybe going to court is not really something unusual and if
they insist, I don’t think it is right to say do it or don’t do it. But
you see, I know that these two men respect President Yar’Adua himself.
So it is not Yar’Adua that they are fighting, it is the system. Just
like Atiku Abubakar went to court on virtually everything. I saw this
as a very healthy development, very healthy constitutional development
in this country because God knows how many Supreme Court decisions,
Court of Appeal decisions… all actions initiated by Atiku and they are
going to go down in our records for the next 50 years or 100 years the
several decisions and rulings of these courts in the numerous cases of
Atiku versus the Federal Government would continue to be cited. It is a
very healthy development and that is how it should be. But you don’t have any fears that the election petition tribunal may set aside Yar’Adua’s victory at the polls?
No, I don’t have fears because we have a good judiciary and that
judiciary will not be guided by impulse. Obasanjo admitted the flaws in
the election and even to be very fair to President Yar’Adua, he also
admitted as much. But everything that we are all doing is trying to
build the country.
What is your assessment of President Yar’Adua’s concept of Government
of National Unity wherein he has now co-opted members of opposition
parties into his government?
I think it is not anything new; it is only in Nigeria that we give it
such hype. You can bring anybody from anywhere in the country into
government. At least, that is what the constitution says. You can bring
in any Nigerian you deemed qualified to help you run an administration.
So, for me, the concept of unity here is not bringing political parties
but making sure that those things that make up or bind Nigeria together
are represented in your cabinet. If the constitution says that each
state must produce at least one minister, the whole idea is for
national unity. So, you don’t have to be ANPP, NDP or AC. First you are
a Nigerian, second maybe you come from a different part of Nigeria and
those of you that were appointed, you come together for the greater
good of Nigeria, this, to me is government of national unity. Not
necessarily the political party you belong to. I think the person is
the issue and where he comes from.
Since the swearing-in of President Yar’Adua, we have been witnessing a
whole lot of reversals of policies and programmes of the Obasanjo
government. And the media is awash with harsh criticisms of
ex-President Obasanjo. You have been through this post-office trauma.
What is your take on this situation, I mean are you feeling like: it
serves Obasanjo right, let him suffer what I have been suffering?
No, I have always believed that even… look, let me tell you a little
story. When I became the President, there were about 23 of us who were
the coup plotters at that time and immediately that coup was
successful, I sat the 23 of us together and said: congratulations, we
made it but remember one thing, just like we took up guns and toppled a
government we also have to watch because somebody would one day want to
topple us and this is because I understood the nature of the Nigerian
person. Of course now, that is an old story. It turned out that there
were attempts to topple us. I knew and I told my ministers as far back
as 1989 that everyone of them must be prepared to defend his tenure as
a minister from what ever period because Nigerians believe in saying
that anybody who finds himself in a position is a rogue, is a thief. In
the process of doing your job, you must have offended somebody some
where some how, so be prepared to defend your action at all times. I
told them this in 1989 and I can bet you that even today if you can
call on any of these officers who served under me as Ministers or even
Governors, they can always step forward and defend themselves. So the
same thing applies to me. I live in this country and you hear all kinds
of stories - $2.8million missing in Uganda, there was $12.4billion
so-called oil wind-fall… I don’t lose a sleep over these things because
I believe and hope that there are still some sensitive Nigerians who
will say wait a minute, let us hear his own version of the story and
once they hear my own version, they will say no, maybe we have not been
fair. This is his argument, this was what happened and I will support
them with facts and figures. And if you say the figures are not true,
then produce the true once. If you do that, that will help the society
immensely to develop but not just spurious allegations just like that.
So, I think I prepared my mind to expect these things, but this is the
true position. It is just like what I told you, in eight years, I knew
the amount of money that accrued to my administration. It is not up to
what accrued to the previous (Obasanjo’s) government in one year.
Still talking about policy reversals; are you surprised that President
Yar’Adua is reversing several policies and programmes of the Obasanjo
government?
Like which ones
The sale of the refineries, privatization of unity schools for example…
Oh… I think… He has come as the President and he has the responsibility
to right all the wrongs that were done. It is perfectly legitimate. It
is in order. Second, wherever there are a lot of cries by the members
of the society, it is the duty of the President to look into what ever
is causing this. So, to me it is not a surprise; every government has
done that. Remember when Obasanjo took over, there was the Christopher
Kolade Panel that looked at what General Abdulsalam Abubakar did in one
year and that led to a reversal on the National Honours which were
given by General Abubakar, there were reversals on oil blocks that were
allocated three months before the regime left office. So, some of these
things should be expected, it is only natural because there were cries
and any government would want to meet the expectations and aspirations
of the people. So, some would be reversed, some would be moderated and
some would be out-rightly dispensed with. I think what the
administration of President Yar’Adua is doing now is perfectly in order.
So you did not, like many Nigerians, nurse the fear that President
Yar’Adua would be operating under the overwhelming influence of
ex-President Obasanjo, given the crucial role the former President
played in bringing him (Yar’Adua) to office?
No, I never nursed that fear because I knew Yar’Adua reasonably well.
He is his own man, a very intelligent man who has a good grasp and
understanding of what governance is all about. If you look at all the
records, he has been most prudent even in his administration in his
state. He is only transferring it to the national level and that is
where the experience he garnered in the state would help him shape up
event at the federal level.
The presidential election you conducted on June 12, 1993 till date
remains the freest and fairest in the nation’s history even in spite of
the fact that you went ahead to annul the same election. Now that we
are talking of electoral reforms it is important we ask you why, in
your view, our elections are bad or should I say acrimonious?
Well, elections have always been… we looked at the history of all the
elections before we designed the famous Option A4; we knew what
happened in the 50s, in the 60s and in the 70s and we tried to find a
solution to some of these. It is not difficult to find out what
happened in the 2003 or the 2007 elections with a view to stopping the
recurrence of some of these things. So, I see the position of the
electoral reform body as something that is geared towards correcting
the errors that we have committed so as to make the country achieve the
basic electoral requirement that the world over accept as credible and
I have no doubt whatsoever that he took the right decision and he
should be supported. I also looked at the characters who are there now
(in the electoral reform committee), they are not like Obasanjo’s
electoral reform conference, these new body has people with proven
integrity, with vast experience in various fields: law, politics,
Science, Civil Society, ordinary observers… they are all represented in
that body. Honestly, I am very confident that, even without pre-judging
them, if we implement the recommendations of this Electoral Reform
Committee, we might well be on the way to tackling electoral problems
in the country. Secondly, there are too many political parties in the
country and they don’t have a guideline within which they should
operate. I don’t mind if there are 100 political parties in the country
today but you must give them certain conditions. For example, a
political party that is unable to produce 10 Councilors in a state in
an election, they should cease to be political parties. By the time you
put guidelines like that in place, you find that some political parties
would only be known in a few local government areas. And this is okay,
fine and good. But you don’t see them at the national level so the
pressure that is always brought to bear on the electoral body during
election is drastically reduced. The pressure actually stems from the
proliferation of political parties. It is my view that limited
political parties is the first step we must take in our bid to sanitize
the electoral system. Maybe two or three political parties would do. Or
a maximum of five.
Yes, we know you love the two party system?
Yes, it gives you a choice. You are either here or there and it gets
you to come closer in a diverse country like ours. We have actually
proved it that party politics is best under a two party system; once
you want political accommodation, you must belong to one political
party or the other. Even then, you find that out of 31 states we had
each of the parties won 16 and 14 states respectively. That made the
two parties strong and stable and in the National Assembly, the same
thing – there was good balance and debates where robust, they were
healthy and the commitment to the nation was reinforced. You are right;
I am a strong believer in few political parties if you want to really
move forward. I am glad that we had two, it worked; we had option A4
and it was adjudged the freest but of course we annulled it, like you
said.
So, you really can not beat
your chest and say we have done this before, we can teach you people
how to do it because on your own you aborted the process, you annulled
the election. Does this now make you feel bad that you can not truly
speak so glowingly of your accomplishments on this particular score?
No, no the circumstances that made us annul it was very much evident
but it did not stop the whole concept. We could have repeated that
election but the same Nigerians were crying that the citizens were
election-weary, that they needed time. Of course they did not give it
enough thought at that time and when we left, the system we put in
place, that you media people called “a contraption” had a constitution
and it was to last six months…
But you left General Abacha behind?
Yes, to supervise that election which could have been held in February
of 1994 but then the same Nigerians cried that it was better to have a
military government than a contraption.
Was it really the cries of Nigerians or that General Abacha betrayed you?
No, no, no he did not. It was the cries. Abacha merely responded to
what you people wanted: “throw this contraption out”; that the court
had ruled that the Interim Government was a contraption, that it was
illegitimate, it was illegal. And typical of Nigerians, everybody began
singing that no, the interim government was not recognized. Meanwhile,
nobody read, to find out what we tried to put out there. As I said, we
military men are always very smart. We would not dare topple a
government if we don’t gauge the mood of the nation, the mood of the
citizens, especially the mood of you, the media. And everything was
right for Abacha to intervene: the mood of the nation, the media, the
prominent citizens and so on. So he did what they expected him to do.
Maybe you should have waited to organize the rescheduled election yourself?
No, no, no, I was the issue so I wanted to give everybody the free
chance to say okay, this man that was the obstacle is no longer there.
That was why I said I stepped aside.
Okay let me take you back to the PDP. Did you resign from the party after you opted out of the presidential race?
No.
Now that efforts are on to reconcile all aggrieved persons in the
party, would you regard your self as an aggrieved member. Or putting it
the other way, would you say you were satisfied with the way the party
treated you during the presidential primaries?
No, I did not even do the primaries.
I mean the processes leading up to the primaries?
I did talk about my intention not to go into the primaries of the PDP
because I did not agree with the way they were going about it; I did
not believe that that is the way primaries should be conducted. Opting
out was the right thing to do. So, what is your take on the Ekwueme reconciliation committee of the PDP?
I believe putting the committee in place is the right thing to do. You
see, the people who sat together to form the PDP are veteran
politicians who are versed and experienced and they are patriots.
Naturally, the likes of Ekwueme and the rest of them who put the party
together ought to feel worried; they ought to feel that something went
wrong. The party was their vision and it now seems that it is
disintegrating, I think it is right that they should go and say now
wait a minute, what went wrong, this was not the way we conceived it,
this is not the dream of the founding fathers of the party and if they
say lets address it and get it back to how it should be, I think it is
a step in the right direction.
Your were an early joiner of the party, the PDP, you have been there
from the beginning. So it is safe to ask you: what went wrong with the
party? At what point did the party begun losing it?
Oh… so many things went wrong. First of all, I think the whole thing
was attitudinal. We did not follow the due process of politics and
competition within the party and that brought about a lot of
disenchantment, a lot of intra-party squabbles… look, everything went
wrong just because those who were charged with the responsibility of
handling them did not have the requisite experience or knowledge to
even manage a system like that, so the whole thing was messed up. I
think this is basically what went wrong.
So you are obviously going to be actively involved in deciding who becomes the next National Chairman of the party?
I think the way they have done the zoning thing makes the picture of
things to come quite clear, which in itself is not new since the NPN
started zoning. The whole aim is to bring stability within the
political party. If the President is from the north, the party chairman
emerges from another zone, which is perfectly okay. So, I think the PDP
is trying to maintain this system. If they keep the system, I expect
the next party chairman should come from the south-east and whoever in
the party the south-east endorses is perfectly okay by me.
A close look at your years in the Army revealed that other than being a
member of the ruling military council, you never took a political
position outside the Army until you became the President. And this is
in spite of the fact that you took active part in virtually all the
successful military coups in the country before the ultimate one that
brought you to power? For example, Obasanjo was a Federal Commissioner;
Buhari was a Military Governor and also Federal Commissioner. How come
you never served as a Military Governor or a Minister under a military
administration?
Yes, you are right, I never did.
Why?
I think the Leaders at that time, like General Murtala Muhammed,
General Danjuma, General Shehu Yar’Adua, they believed in one thing;
they said that their best officers should not be allowed to take
political offices. It was their view that after the mass movement of
officers into political offices, there must be other good officers who
will remain to make sure that the Army or the military institutions are
being run properly. So, you find that we did not lose some of the best
officers to political appointments. In spite of the fact that these
were military governments, some of our best officers remained within
the military system because we wanted to keep the system. So that was
the only reason why I remained in the system.
Yes, talking about the military, there has been some fuss about your relationship with the late Colonel Bukar Dimka…
What did they say about us?
That on that infamous day of the aborted coup you where supposed to get
him out of the premises of Radio Nigeria dead or alive but that you
went in there and negotiated with him and allowed him to escape
We were friends.
So, because of your friendship you allowed him to escape?
Friendship helps.
But you had an order to get this your friend “dead or alive”
Because I was his friend he did not shoot me, he could have shot me.
You had troops and you had an order to arrest him
I had an order to dislodge him
Not to arrest him?
To dislodge him. That is himself and his men. To get them out of the place.
So you allowed him to escape?
No, I could not have. It was just like what happened in January of
1966. When we go in … look, in situations like that, there are many
factors you take into consideration. As much as possible, you must try
to minimize casualties; there are unintended consequences of any action
that either Dimka or myself could have taken and lots of innocent
people would have died. That, in fact was one operation that I feel
proud that apart from one or two – a soldier and an officer and one
civilian, we did not have cases of death in that operation. It was one
of those situations that you just have to use common sense.
You had discussions with Dimka.
Yes. When you are confronting a man that is armed, you could trigger
off trouble the way you talk to him. When I got in there, those boys
were terribly drunk. Only God knows what they took. The slightest thing
would have provoked unnecessary blood-letting; so you would become a
foolish brave man. But in such situations you have to use your bravery
and intelligence to achieve maximum result. The whole issue was not to
go there and just engage them in gun battle otherwise your training as
an officer would have been a waste. We were also trained to wage
psychological operation. To convince some one who is erring that look,
you are doing the wrong thing and if you abandon it, it would be safe
for you and it would be good for the country. It’s all part of our
training.
So, what was Dimka telling you in there?
Oh, we had some good chat. He was talking about why they had to do what
they did. He was talking about people like me, how we were considered
junior officers but we were being given accelerated promotion and all
that, that many officers in the army were not happy; you know all those
things. But I tried to remind him that two of us were friends, that he
was one of my Best men at my wedding and that I would not want to see
him dead, that I would rather prefer to see him captured and maybe
tried.
Sir, there is also another missing link that we would want to fill up. What really happened to General Bako? Yes, I like that, there is a missing link. I think … when they went to
Abuja for that operation, they tried to… this thing happened in the
night… you see, from the experiences we had from the civil war, we
found out that soldiers sometimes panic and when they panic, there are
dare consequences. So, it was in the night and there was what you could
call accidental discharge and the first reaction of the soldiers was
that they were being attacked and in situations like that, you could
shoot anyway. It happened to us I remember, during the civil war. You
get shot at in the front and the sound reverberates behind so the
soldiers at the back believes that the person shooting is right there
then they forgot that some 500 meters away are what we refer to as own
troops, your own forces. Because of no adequate training, a soldier
would just cork his riffle and start shooting only to discover that he
is shooting his own people. During the civil war, we sustained lots of
casualties as a result of this situation. So, my suspicion is that a
similar situation must have played out during that operation in Abuja
and a bullet hit the late Ibrahim (Bako).
So, claims that General Tunde Ogbeha may have pulled the trigger on Bako are not correct after all?
I would not like to say he did it, no. It was the situation they found
themselves; it was dark and everybody was shooting anyhow.
But is it true that General Bako was going to be the Head of State after the coup that ousted President Shehu Shagari?
No, no, no it is not true. Before we went into the whole thing we agreed that General Buhari would become Head of State.
Some people said it was you that was primed to become the Head of State then?
No, no, I resisted it.
You were actually offered?
They wanted me to and I said no. Buhari was our senior, so I did not want anybody to jump him.
It was also said that those of you who ousted Shagari actually wanted
to bring back General Obasanjo as Head of State in 1984. Is this true?
It is true. But to be very fair to General Obasanjo, he rejected the
offer. He said no. He said it would destroy his integrity, that he
handed over to Shagari and that it is not right for him to get
involved. But he (Obasanjo) said he was not stopping us from going
ahead with the plot (general laughter).
On a lighter note, there is this picture magazines in the country have
used severally of you playing a game of draft with far senior officers
like Generals Obasanjo and T.Y Danjuma. So many interpretations have
been given to this picture owing to the belief that a junior officer
ought not to be that cozy with officers who are his seniors by far.
What is your take on this mild controversy? No, normally… if you looked at the dress we were wearing, every evening
at certain periods, all of us get together, whether to play squash, to
play soccer or to go to the gym. So, everybody including the
commander-in-Chief, we have a day set out for every one to mingle and
play games.
There is this Big Brother myth around you. Your friends and associates
believe that somehow you have solution to a whole lot of things,
including their problems. Are you worried, are you burdened by this
seemingly high expectations?
Quite frankly, it is not a burden. I am not worried.
But are you aware of this situation I am talking about
Yes, I am. I used to have an uncle who died about four or five years
ago. Somebody asked him a similar question and he said no, I (IBB)
wasn’t doing one tenth of what my father was doing. Yes, he said I am
trying but that my father did much more. Now if you looked at the
environment at that time, it was a local environment but this uncle of
mine was comparing me to a man who operated in a small locality. So,
quite frankly, I am not burdened. A lot of my friends have said they
wanted to see anybody that I quarrel with. They have not. They wanted
to see the day I will say no… But if you are dealing with human beings,
there are better ways to say no than an outright “go to hell.” I
normally tell people that there are decent ways to call people stupid
and the person would not even realize that you called him stupid and he
continues doing what he is doing until it suddenly dawns on him that
things are not what he thought and then the truth will dawn on him.
And your close friends have told me that you have this uncommon ability
to forgive and even forget betrayals and treachery. How did you
cultivate this trait?
This is true. To be honest, I would say my religious background helps
me a lot. You must try as much as possible to put into practice what
you learn, lets say from parents, from religious teachers and what have
you. It is very difficult but you try to do it at certain level.
However, some other people are gifted, you know like I feel: why should
I quarrel with you over something that if I sit back and we reflect, we
should be able to resolve this problem. So the whole essence of
quarrelling is no longer there. But then it requires somebody who is
naturally patient. I am lucky, I don’t act on impulse. My grandfather
used to say that whatever happened to somebody today happened to
another person yesterday and somebody would go through the same
tomorrow. So you keep wondering, is it really worth it to quarrel?
Would you consider it a thing of joy if any of your sons take this trait from you. Would you consider it strength on his part?
I will consider it strength. I will give you an example: when my boy
(Muhammed) was growing up, we were in Lagos and I was, I think, a
Lieutenant Colonel. I took him in a car and those days he loved
fiddling with musical instruments. So, we passed through a traffic, it
was hot and people were at bus stops or trekking and struggling and
sweating. And here was us comfortable in a car and playing music. So, I
told him and he understood quite well at that time. I said to him see
those people outside toiling, suffering and look at you now in an
air-conditioned car, we are here enjoying while others are walking in
the sun to their destinations and I told him that the God that created
you created them. He said yes. The same God loves them as much as he
loves us and that the same God protects them the way he protects us;
that He knows what they are going through but that this same God does
what he likes. So I urged him to always remember that the fact that he
is enjoying does not mean he is better than those people before God.
You know, I tried to put things into his mind. It is good that you tell
them early in life that nothing should bother them and some times it
works. And I had another teacher who said that any day you wake up and
you don’t feel that somebody betrayed you, that day is a bonus for you;
but always have it at the back of your mind that somebody will betray
you one day. So, if he does it would only dampen your feelings for a
while but because you expected it, this feeling will not go very deep.
The trauma it will bring will be very limited and you will forget it
easily.
Finally sir, what goals are you setting for yourself before age 70?
A: First, it is my prayer to remain in good health, that is very
important; and to be able to share my experiences with all of you who
are growing up. I think that is probably what is lacking today in our
country, we don’t pass enough information to the next generation, it is
not right and I want to help correct that. We must share our experience
with the younger generation. That is the goal I have set for myself.
No more partisan politics?
Partisan politics? Well this is what I told one of your boys
(Journalist) recently: He asked me, are you going to contest election
in 2011 and I answered him that you don’t expect me to at age 70 come
to you and beg you to vote for me. I think the older one gets the more
you think about a lot of things. For me, it is not a do-or-die affair.
THE END
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Authors 
Posted by Robot| 24.01.2008 23:47