SUBJECT: “NIGERIA AT 49: WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?”

Date: October 3rd, 2009

Discussants:

Nuhu Ribadu, Former Chairman of Nigeria’s Economic and Financial Crimes Commission- called in from Washington DC;
Nasir El-Rufai, Former Minister of the Federal Capital Territory- called in from Dubai, UAE;
Patrick Utomi, former presidential candidate - called in from Lagos Nigeria;
Host: Sonala Olumhense, Columnist with the Guardian, based in New York

Additional listener questions were read by Farooq Kperogi, who teaches journalism At the Georgia State University, Atlanta

Download Podcast from Itunes or from the following location:http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-79018/TS-274825.mp3

Independence: Is it correct to say Happy Independence?

Clearly there’s despair and despondency in Nigeria. But there is something in the Nigeria spirit that causes us to be hopeful. – Utomi

• Utomi. Life is about hope. If you have no hope you are dead. In that sense therefore happy is important. Clearly there’s despair and despondency in Nigeria. But there is something in the Nigeria spirit that causes us to be hopeful. Yes we live in challenged times, there's uncertainty in direction, but yes the feeling of hope is important.
• Ribadu: The essence of independence is to get freedom, ability to manage ourselves well and to solve our own problems. I'm not sure if we have achieved that. I don't know if this is a joyous day or a sad one. Despondency means people are unhappy. All the essence of independence we have not achieved. We are probably better off being managed by other people. With freedom, more than 2 million Nigerians have lost their lives to various crises and conflicts; everything we have ever tried is a failure; people are talking of separating; though the schools are there but not functional; if our leaders are sick they go abroad; infrastructure is close to zero; we cannot even produce basic things like power that is required for us to live as people and run our systems. I really can’t say it’s a happy moment.

Ribadu on Police inability to investigate high profile deaths such as Ige and marshall

The problem with the Police is just a microcosm of failure of leadership in Nigeria - Ribadu As long as you do not have good leadership that is alive to responsibilities, there is little that those under can do. - Ribadu

• Ribadu: it’s a systemic failure of leadership over the years that have led to the collapse of police and other institutions. Over 2 million have lost their lives since independence senselessly and so we should not focus on Ige, Marshall , but focus on the systemic failure.

Having served in Government, What are the Obstacles /Hurdles to Good Leadership

• I had my responsibilities even before Obasanjo, so I try to separate myself from that position of being part of Obasanjo’s Government. In my role as a police officer, before becoming chairman of EFCC, I did my own contribution. I took the Abachas to court for murders and attempted murders - Ibrus, Kudirat etc. I was part of tribunal that was responsible for bringing justice to those responsible for the religious riots in Kaduna. So I did my part.
• The problem in our country is beyond what an individual can do. In Africa, as long as you do not have good leadership that is alive to responsibilities, there is little that those under can do. Whereever you have crisis in Africa, you’ll see that it is directly related to leadership crisis. We've seen this failure of leadership in Congo (Mobutu), Liberia (Taylor), Somalia (Barre), Uganda (Idi Amin), Sierra Leone, Zimbabwe. Same in Nigeria. Its failure of responsible leadership.
• So the problem with the Police is just a microcosm of failure of leadership in Nigeria.

What Leaders would you identify as bad leaders in Nigeria

• Ribadu: We had the misfortune of very irresponsible military leaders who were totally irresponsible. Who misused their office in a selfish manner to bring injustice to their own people, who took resources that were meant for development into their own personal use and turn themselves into demi-gods. As a Nigerian, you know who I’m talking about. We have a good few such as Buhari, Murtala, Abdulsalam was transit. The rest are part of the problem that we are talking about today.
• (Including Obasanjo?) Ribadu: Oh yes.

Patrick Utomi

“This is the most striking thing about our civilization if you can call it that, is the limited worth of human life.” Pat Utomi “Electoral process reform is so fundamental to this democratic experiment.” Pat Utomi That nonchalant attitude of the INEC boss (Iwu) should tell you all you need to know about the electoral process and the ability of this government to implement reforms. – Utomi

• At the heart of human progress are the values of any society. It is central to all progress. Leadership is particularly important because leaders set the tone. Leaders affect culture. This is why in all the countries Nuhu mentioned, cultures have been seen to have been impacted negatively by those leaders. The power of example which leadership offers often has an impact that is transforming on culture and we can see unfortunately that because the dignity of the human person has never been raisedd to the level it should belong to by the actions of those leaders, human life has come to mean nothing in our country. So I agree with Nuhu that we shouldn’t just look at the celebrated people and that every human life is worth the same before God. But in our country, it just seems that human life is worthless. This is the most striking thing about our civilization if you can call it that, is the limited worth of human life. This is why the US Americans will go to the end of the earth to save an American life. It is to elevate the value of the human person.
• Now specific to the institution of democracy, clearly one of the most powerful thing that the democratic process does is that it confers legitimacy on government. When any groups of people are perceived as legitimate, it is easier for them to implement policy because people see their own interest in that action. But when there’s crisis of legitimacy and people don’t see those in authority as responsible or accountable to them, then you will see that getting things done becomes problematic because people don’t own the issues, they don’t feel it belongs to them. And as such there's no accountability to the people but to godfathers. So the whole subject of administration is to serve the power basis.
• Electoral process reform is so fundamental to this whole democratic experiment. It’s not just the laws but it’s in people ensuring that they have a stake. So there’s a challenge of vertical accountability.

Do you think that the current government can implement electoral reforms?

• To be honest with you, governments in Nigeria have contempt for elections. Two nights ago, former senate president, Ken Nnamani wondered aloud as to why is Maurice Iwu is still chairman of INEC. If people are in position, does it not bother them that there is such opprobrium that our democracy is so negatively perceived because of his office?  Does personal dignity not tell him to resign in view of the popular perception?
• That nonchalant attitude of the INEC boss should tell you all you need to know about the electoral process and the ability of this government to implement reforms

Possibility of progressive politicians like you joining PDP to achieve ambition

• Are you saying that our democracy is only workable in a one-party state? A consolidated initiative will help the system a lot. I’m an institution person and I see an opportunity for a strong alternative political party My commitment to the idea of a second party is important so that there is a real opposition

Should this megaparty be formed just to oppose PDP or should it be based on ideology

• · There are shades in the spectrum. My ideal is to create a movement that has a soul that is committed to the idea of mans place in society and that’s what the party should be about. But if it turns out that you don’t get that ideal, that something that provides an option is still better than everyone being in the same party.

El-Rufai

“Yar’Adua cannot think beyond Katsina and it’s therefore difficult for him to understand the dynamics of international relations.” – El-Rufai (On Obasanjo) “Obasanjo was not perfect but he got things done and you knew where he was going. The difference between that government and Yar’Adua's is like night and day… Obasanjo has done very well and we must give credit where credit is due” El-Rufai

• Nigeria has been missing in action in the past 2-3 years
• We have begun to let down Africa that’s looking up to us for leadership.
• It’s a reflection of the current state of poor leadership in the country. The current president cannot think beyond Katsina city and therefore its difficult for him to understand the dynamics of international relations. And those around him do not know better.
• next year Nigeria will be a member of security council representing the continent and we will not have anything as a continent to show for it. it all boils down to the point Nuhu and Pat are makeing - its a failure of leadership.
• The lesson of Umaru Yar'Adua is that we should never take Leadership for granted in the country.

El-Rufai

• My views are biased because I was part. An objective assessment requires a long term assessment.
• He let many people down including some of us who served under him, but also we must give him credit for laying down the foundation for future prosperity. OBJ played major roles in resolving conflict and peacekeeping all over the world.
• Obasanjo was not perfect but he got things done and you knew where he was going. Compare that to what we have now where no one is getting anything done, nobody knows where we are going. The difference between that government and Yar’Adua's is like night and day.
• Those outside of government are better to give on objective assessment but we must recognize that in the international arena, Obasanjo had done pretty well.
• There were some domestic failures, but in all in the key areas of infrastructure and laying of foundation for future prosperity, Obasanjo has done very well and we must give credit where credit is due.

El-Rufai

“We knew (3rd term agenda) existed. But all of us in the economic team from Ngozi, to Obi, to Nuhu and myself were dead against 3rd term and we did all we could to ensure it did not happen” - El-Rufai “What many people don’t know is that this Yar’Adua government is a government of supporters of 3rd term” - El-Rufai

•  It was denied then, but we knew then that based on the actions of a few people that have access to Obasanjo, we knew that it existed. But it was denied each time we raised the subject.
• but our position was clear - we should build a country in which institutions are paramount and not around individuals. As Pat said, there is a time when the individual begins to lose effectiveness. Also the constitution was very clear- no more than 2 terms of 4 years each.
• The price which some of us are paying currently is because of our position on 3rd term. What many people don’t know is that this Yar’Adua government is a government of supporters of 3rd term and that is why many of those who are against 3rd term are excluded. Both Nuhu Ribadu and I are writing books about our experiences in government and we will go into some detail about what happened and what roles we played in the 3rd term saga.
• I want to reassure you that all of us in the economic team from Ngozi, to Obi, to Nuhu and myself were dead against 3rd term and we did all we could in our various operational areas to ensure it did not happen. Not because we thought Obasanjo was a bad president, but because we thought fundamentally that the constitution should not be amended.

Are you opposed to this Government because you were not made Minister of Energy?

“Yar’Adua maintains a persecution agenda against some of us largely because he's insecure.” El-Rufai “I'm done with public service.”- El-Rufai

• Well I made it clear even before the elections that I was not interested to both Yar’Adua and Obasnjo that I had plans to take 2 years off to complete my program in the University of London and other things. I was not expecting to be in Government and I made it clear that I was not available. Of course people like Ribadu tried to convince me to stay in Government but I had already made up my mind. WHen when I went to say bye to Yar’Adua, he asked me to be available and I gave him my number and said fine. I'm done with public service and I made that very clear. This story about the minister of energy is maybe expectations of some people. I have never contemplated being in office for one day longer than when Obasanjo left office. You can ask Obasanjo and he'll confirm that or ask President Yar’Adua if he'll be honest for once in his life, he'll confirm that.

I'm opposed to Yar'Adua's administration for two reasons

• 1. It seems from the beginning to be an administration that was interested in reversing every good thing that had been done by previous administration. And I belive strongly that you should build on past achievements from generation to generation. Of course along the line, you can correct whatever is wrong, but not undo everything so as to be popular. That is irresponsible leadership and that's how Yar’Adua started and it was clear to me he was going in a wrong direction.
• 2. Secondly, Yar’Adua maintains a persecution agenda against some of us largely because he's insecure. He felt that some of us would talk if things are not going well, or be a threat to his future leadership and he has made it state policy to go after us to destroy us and in the case of Nuhu who stayed back, to assassinate.
• So I cannot sit back and do nothing simply because Yar’Adua is someone I've known for thirty-something years. So anyone who says it’s because they are excluded are talking crap. We have our own plans. I had a career in private sector before government and I was happy to go back to my life. But what will I do t if the government will not allow me to live my life, I should I just sit back? Of course I will fight back with every blood. I cannot be part of this funny do-nothing government anyway even if I were asked to. As I said, I'm done with public service.

Nuhu Ribadu on corruption and consistency of approach

If you had to do it all over again, what would you do different?

“We succeeded simply because Obasanjo allowed it. We failed because the next leadership refused to allow us.” - Ribadu I've learnt a lot, but if I have a chance to do it again, I’ll probably do it in the same way but I’ll understand that a lot of it depends on political leadership.

• I'll do it all over again and I won’t make much personal changes. We did it when we could do it in 2003 and when everyone knew that something like that had not happened previously in the history of our country and to some extent we succeeded. So we proved it could be done. To some extent we succeeded. At least internationally, our profile got better and Nigeria rose in international ratings of most corrupt countries in the world. So we proved that fundamentally, it could be done.
• Powerful people were brought to justice; we recovered so much money and we built an institution that is delivering. More importantly, we reversed the flow of capital and we saw inflow of money into the country that helped to develop the economy. So it worked tremendously but it changed.
• The only thing I could say now - and I've learnt and I'm a better person - is that you cannot fight corruption if the strong political will at the highest level is not there. Whatever agencies or individuals do at the lower level will come to nothing as long as that political authority on top at the highest level is not taking it along or does not believe in it. We succeeded simply because Obasanjo allowed it. We failed because the next leadership refused to allow us. There’s no way anti corruption initiative will succeed if the necessary political will is not there.
• An example in Africa today is that those of us who have attempted it have seen reversals in South Africa. We've seen the same in other African countries in South Africa, Kenya, Zambia – all because of change of leadership and Direction. So unless at the highest level, there is a strong position that we are going to do this and we are going do it honestly, you cannot do it.
• Fighting corruption is a most difficult thing and it can easily be misused by political leaders as a tool to fight their own battles to gain political advantage. We struggled with this in our country and to some extent we succeeded and that is why EFCC had a little to show for its efforts. If you follow that line and allow yourself to be used politically, you cannot achieve anything.
• I've learnt a lot, but if I have a chance to do it again, I’ll probably do it in the same way but I’ll understand that a lot of it depends on political leadership.

Utomi:

First rule in reputation management is: Do not say what desire or you want to be. Do something and show what you are doing – Utomi

• The Minister of information and myself registered at Nsukka the same day. While some of us studied things that has to do with reputation management, she studied pharmacy but that does not mean she won’t have a much better clue than some of us.
• First rule in reputation management is: Do not say what desire or you want to be because it doesn’t matter in the final analysis. Do something and show what you are doing. i.e you will get more mileage by pointing out how many people you have done something for or what remarkable things people have done than saying "we are not bad". You can say “we are not bad” from now till kingdom come and use up lots of resources.
• I think there are lots of resources that could be used differently in changing how were seen.

 “Corruption is now state policy” El-Rufai

“ Now it’s a slogan and a joke. Corruption is now state policy” El-Rufai The Nigerian economy is a recursive economy - 2 steps forward and 4 steps backwards. My sense for now is that we are 7 steps backwards – Utomi

• Nasir: Let me say the history behind this vision 20-2020. To be clear, this was not Yar’Adua's vision. It was not even Obasanjo's vision. We came across a publication by a 2006 Goldman Sachs which forecasted that based on the reforms that Nigeria was doing between 2003 and 2005, that Nigerias economy would be in the top 20 economies by 2025. We brought this to the FEC and OBJ said if we put in more efforts, we can achieve these goals by year 2020. This was how we came about the vision 20-2020.
• In our handover notes, we articulated the outlines this idea - based on the fact that you have a clear economic strategy, based on the reforms already in place. Now, the Yar’Adua government which is very good at sloganeering took this 2020 and made it a big slogan without any clear economic plans to achieve it. Some of the foundational reforms that took us on that track have been suspended. Public sector reforms have stopped, fight against corruption has been reversed. Corruption is now state policy. Every reform that’s needed  to take us there has been suspended and reversed. Now it’s a slogan and a joke.
• Utomi: In the Asia drama, Economist Gunnar Myrdal wrote off Indonesia. But we know Indonesia turned that on its head. In fact we've seen publications on how Indonesia and Nigeria are moving in opposite directions. I like to be the eternal optimist that if people put their hands on the plow, everything is possible but my friends, our hands are not on the plow. The Nigerian economy is a recursive economy - 2 steps forward and 4 steps backwards. My sense for now is that we are 7 steps backwards and cannot catch up to those countries in Pittsburg. Travelling at the speed we are travelling, unless something dramatic happens we are going to be way off track.

Sonala:

Adding to the Indonesia example, we are looking at 3 dimensions

1. The general development approach they adopted up till the crisis of late 1990s.
2. The crisis came and they had to start over until the tsunami of 2004
3. In 2009, in spite of those setbacks, they have gone much further than Nigeria

If you have to address a classroom of 14 year olds. How would you encourage them and sell the Vision of Nigeria

• Nuhu Ribadu: We are going to give you back your country, we are going to give you back your future. We wont fail you and its time we are going to tell Nigerians that enough is enough, and collectively we will address and solve the problem. It is leadership that will reverse leadership failures. We assure you we will work hard to democratically produce a leadership that is honest, transparent, honest and courageous. We have seen this happen in different parts of the world. It has to happen in Nigeria. Enough is Enough. Thank you.
• Pat utomi: They tell you you are the leaders of tomorrow, but I tell you tomorrow has started today.You are the leaders of now. You have to put on your thinking cap. Thinking before action is critical. We've got to focus on our institutions. Public sector holders should be obsessed with creating jobs. If we can build upon the kind of commitment that the Sadaurnas, the Okparas the Awolowos had in the 60s, the the country will start on the right path.
• Nasir: We have a country to build and it will not be built unless we all work hard, apply our hearts and our minds towards building this country. All the great nations on earth developed because their people particularly young people stepped up to the plate. 75% of our population is below is below 40. Its a young country. We must all work hard to ensure this country makes progress. If we put our heads together we will good governance and a sense of community, then we will achieve that greatness that is our manifest destiny.
  
  
  
  

Robot  # 1 | 04.10.2009 23:20

...Read the full article.

dem  # 2 | 05.10.2009 02:24

Excellent.  Well done NVS.

MrOneNaija  # 3 | 05.10.2009 14:17

WHO ORGANIZED THIS YAWN ? Judging by the printed texts above , one can make this assessment: The main participants, namely, Ribadu, el-Rufai and Utomi, do come across as sounding boards of one another. My question: In the face of the precarious Nigerian situation, should soi-disant progressives be engaging themselves in circular monologues of a masturbatory kind?

akuluouno  # 4 | 05.10.2009 14:18

Thanks NVS for this expose on the working sof the mind of these three men. I think Utomi should be pardoned because he was not part of the nascent hurricane in governance of which El Rufai and Ribadu were principal propellers. I think both men should take a well deserved break and allow others to try their hands in the governance of Nigeria. Their analysis seems too simplistic for me to swallow especially wrt the gargantuan and complex challenges facing Nigeria. I had expected them to be hitting the nail on the head but all I got was the same platitudes usually mouthed by Africans who have tasted power and suddenly lost same. If both men are patriotic, let them come back home and face the law that both used to harangue people:rolleyes:or is what is good for the gander not good for the goose. For once I support Tunji Braithwaite on this matter:lol:

eire  # 5 | 06.10.2009 04:43

=akuluouno;392980> If both men are patriotic, let them come back home and face the law that both used to harangue people:rolleyes:or is what is good for the gander not good for the goose. For once I support Tunji Braithwaite on this matter:lol: What Law? Is it not global news that UMYA was not elected president of Nigeria and that his actions further gives credence that he is a civilian corrupt dictator? Tunji Braithwaite is no more saintly than Abubakar Dangiwa Umar who deconstructed UMYA and his regime as nothing more than another waste of 4 years of Nigeria's time. If I understand you, you want these men who did their best to try and sanitize Nigeria, to come and face justice under a president who is using the attorney general to protect international criminals like Ibori, and chasing well wishers of Nigeria out of the country? You people need your heads examined!

patonaiyekan  # 6 | 06.10.2009 06:33

I read a headline last weekend about the initiative by el-Rufai, Ribadu etal to start a movement towards forming a credible opposition to this retrogressive political structure. If it is indeed the case, many Nigerians including myself have reasons to support that movement based on the records of performance by this two gentlemen. They demonstrated conviction and commitment to make a change. Our individual perception of the style of delivery may differ but our country cannot make progress without people of ideas and determination coming forward to forcefully push us ahead. My hope is that the story is true and the Utomis of this country will join forces and mobilise ruthlessly to make the change possible.

Kabikala  # 7 | 06.10.2009 06:46

=akuluouno;392980>Thanks NVS for this expose on the working sof the mind of these three men. I think Utomi should be pardoned because he was not part of the nascent hurricane in governance of which El Rufai and Ribadu were principal propellers. I think both men should take a well deserved break and allow others to try their hands in the governance of Nigeria. Their analysis seems too simplistic for me to swallow especially wrt the gargantuan and complex challenges facing Nigeria. I had expected them to be hitting the nail on the head but all I got was the same platitudes usually mouthed by Africans who have tasted power and suddenly lost same. If both men are patriotic, let them come back home and face the law that both used to harangue people:rolleyes:or is what is good for the gander not good for the goose. For once I support Tunji Braithwaite on this matter:lol: Both Ribadu and El-Rufai come across as charlattans who are bent on justifying the disaster that Obasanjo had turned out to be. And even if they (especially El-Rufai) keep repeating what we all know about the calamity called Umoru, they are both most culpable. Both have now suddenly become daylight critics just because they lost out in the power game. El-Rufai himself admitted to being part of the group that foisted the indolent man on this country regardless of whether or not we actually wanted him. He was part of the cabal that felt they possessed all the wisdom in the world to decide for the rest of us who they regarded (and possibly still regard) as less intelligent. And Ribadu was even worse. He brought out the list of corrupt politicians that excluded well-known criminals like Aliero, Egwu, Tony Anenih, Lucky Igbinedion, Andy Ubah, Bode George, James Ibori and Peter Odili just to pursue his master's agenda and made sure to include Obasanjo's enemies like Atiku, Tinubu, Ngige, and Orji Kalu (http://www.nigeriavillagesquare.com/articles/newsflash/corruption-atiku-tinubu-kalu-top-efcc-list.html). I hope all the supporters of Ribadu can now see that their man has always been and remains an unrepentant apologist of Obasanjo in the same mould as El-Rufai and Fani-Kayode, and not of a similar mould like Gani Fawehinmi that he is trying to present as his model.

samuelkehinde  # 8 | 06.10.2009 07:22

If life is all about hope then, there is hope for Nigeria

Pa Bj  # 9 | 06.10.2009 08:21

Thank you NVS, Excellent insight and excellent read. The struggle continues!!!!!!!!!!!

chimby  # 10 | 06.10.2009 09:13

The struggle continues, what struggle please?

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