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Our Major Problem Is the Elite
President Olusegun Obasanjo speaks to Tell on his eight-year term.
by Nosa Igiebor,Onome Osifo Whiskey, and Dayo Aiyetan
http://www.tellng.com/news/articles/...eliteprlm.html
Mr. President, the elections have been concluded and we now have a president-elect in the person of Governor Umaru Yar’Adua. How do you feel at this moment having a successor who will take over from you at the end of the month?
How should one feel? It is normal one would feel happy to develop a successor. We do that in the family, even in business; more so, in government. You can only feel right.
A lot of criticisms have attended the election. You have said that no system is perfect. Are you optimistic that people will come to realise that some of the problems that occurred are just human or a reflection of our level of development?
I have said before that I have participated in elections actively since 1959. As a young officer, I participated in the 1959 elections handled by the colonial masters. That was the one that transitioned us from a dependent colonial territory to an independent state.
Even in those days, there were controversies — call it what you like — things that people felt did not go right. But even in those days, if you considered the distance you had to cover, you could not move to all parts of Nigeria.
The best that Chief (Obafemi) Awolowo could do was go round with helicopter and throw leaflets down in most parts of the North. We have now gone beyond that. In (today’s) election, anyone could go anywhere in Nigeria. This is substantial advance.
Secondly, election rigging used to start from voters’ registration. People would collect voters’ cards and, on election day, they would give them to their supporters. But the system we use has substantially done away with that. We now have the problem of ballot papers and ballot boxes.
In these days of e–voting, e–commerce, e–medicine and all that, I think that the next stage for us should be e–voting. Then the issue of ballot papers and ballot boxes will go away. I do not say that there will be no other issue that may rear its ugly head. But what I am saying is that we are making progress.
Democracy is not a destination, it is a journey. There is no country in the world that would say that it has reached the end of the journey of democracy. Some people have perfected their own system. Take the British for instance who pride themselves as one of the most democratic countries in the world. But I was in Britain many years back when the party that had the majority of votes was not the party that formed the government because the party with the majority votes did not have the majority of elected representatives. That is their own democracy. They accept it.
So, what is important to me is that we accept that we have no alternative to democracy, therefore, we have to deepen it. Now, we have to look at how to handle the issue of ballot papers and ballot boxes. And the framers of the Constitution have anticipated that there would be election disputes and controversies and they have provided the way to deal with that, through election tribunals. And everybody has acclaimed our judiciary to be independent and I join them to make that acclamation.
Why don’t we allow the judiciary to do its job? Many members of my party have come to me to complain that they were rigged out and they have shown me evidence. And I tell them to collate the evidence and go to the tribunal. To me, that is what should be done.
Some people blame INEC. I am not saying INEC is perfect, but is it INEC that thumb-printed ballot papers or snatched ballot boxes or put the tanker carrying 30,000 litres of fuel and gas cylinders to blow up their headquarters? Is it INEC that instigated the so–called militants in Bayelsa State?
Is it INEC that killed policemen in Port Harcourt? If not for the grace of God … on Friday, the eve of the election, some people went early in the morning to where a cleric with substantial following was leading prayers in Kano and shot him dead. Is it INEC that did that? If some people did that to set things on fire, is that INEC?
And I have also said that all the political parties, including my own party, should share in the blame for all these problems. But I will not say that my party is more guilty than others. If parties and political leaders had all behaved the way they should, then we would have had a different story.
When the political observers commented on the election, did they understand the complexities of our country? When I told one of them that this is a country with no fewer than 350 languages, he said it could not be true. There is no other country like Nigeria in the world. I am not talking of dialects but distinct languages that have their own complexities and challenges.
In 1999, we had three political parties. Today, we have 50, most of them not in tune with the constitutional provision which says that political parties must be national.
From your analysis, do you see the need for a major constitutional review to deal with some of these loopholes?
Of course. I have always said that there must be a minimum standard of performance by a political party before it can call itself a national party. When I was military head of state, the law specified what qualifies you to be a national party: you must have offices in the federal capital territory and two thirds of the states of the federation. Do you see that in these parties? Do they have offices in 24 states?
So, there are things that need to be corrected. But I insist that you do not throw the baby away with the bath water. Now we realise that something needs to be done with ballot papers and ballot boxes. INEC will tell you that is why they preferred e–voting.
You can see that those who opposed it are the people who wanted to rig. I do not say e–voting would be perfect, but there were so many things that went wrong that would have been dealt with.
What decided your party’s choice of Yar’Adua as presidential candidate?
We put our heads together and said, “How do we start creating a convention, a culture of succession in the party because in other societies, conventions are already built?” In America, if they are looking for a chief executive, it would be either from among the governors or members of Congress. In Britain, it is from members of parliament. We believed that we should develop our own culture of succession.
So, we met with governors and leaders of the party in the National Assembly and agreed that our own convention should start from among those who have had some experience — among the governors and members of the National Assembly — not excluding others but essentially from among these groups.
We picked one person from each zone — either a governor, senator or member of the House — and formed a committee. They came up with a report. And we said, “Let us see the security report on those who signified interest”. When the reports came, we settled for the person we thought would best serve the country.
Now, what do you think is the problem with the Niger Delta and how do you think it can be resolved?
I have said that the problem of the Niger Delta, which started from before independence, was initially that of underdevelopment. That later developed into agitation which was encouraged by the leaders in the region. Then the youths became a Frankenstein that you build and can no longer control. They moved from agitation to militancy. And still, some of the leaders encouraged them, particularly in the days of Abacha’s self-succession. That is what we have now.
We must accept that the communities, local governments, oil companies, and the state and federal governments must jointly accept responsibility. If we do that, then how do we deal with the problem? That is what we are now doing.
For the first time, we call a meeting, like a parliament, in the open. Now, the governors are on their toes because, quarterly when we meet, the people confront them. We now have a regional development commission to coordinate development efforts in the area.
It is not perfect but let us continue to build on what we have. We also have a master plan. So, whatever any state is doing, we can immediately see how it fits into the master plan. Then what can the NDDC do to complement that and what can the federal government, too, do to complement that? And remember that this is not a problem that developed overnight …
(Cuts in) What about solving the problem of militancy in the region which cannot be solved overnight?
Militancy will only go away when the youths see that militancy does not pay. First, you have to convince them and that is what I call the carrot. It is when the carrot fails that you use the stick. The youths are no fools. They take hostage and even though they have not killed anyone, they demand ransom. People say they do not pay the ransom but it is all lies. Each hostage they take, they collect ransom to release him. But when they cannot get ransom for hostages and they see development; they also see that those of them who want to acquire skills can do so and then get jobs, they would see reason to stop their militancy.
Would dialogue with the militants be unreasonable?
I have done that before. I got 35 of them to come here and they were saying to one another in my presence, “I killed your father because you killed my brother”. And my chief of staff said I should not sit down and listen to that kind of thing. But I said I would listen so I could find a solution to the problem.
Take a place like Okrika. I am told that the place is made up of 13 compounds and they are not on speaking terms. They have intractable land disputes. They have four cults or militant groups and the militant groups fight against one another and they won’t listen to anybody.
What I found out is that the community system in that place has collapsed. In any community, there are certain values and ethos. In my place, we say that four eyes produce a child but a hundred eyes raise the child. But where the community system and values have collapsed, where is the receptacle even when you rehabilitate the militants?
For Okrika, we got Tekena Tamuno, the retired academic, to start the work. The governor said he would do the one of Kalabari and got Justice Karibi White. Do you know that Rev. Father Matthew Hassan-Kukah is working in Ogoni? So, the problem is not just that of the militants. It has to be taken holistically.
You just said that Nigeria is a country with over 350 languages. You have been president for eight years. How has it been ruling that kind of country?
The ordinary Nigerians are no problem. They are wonderful in hospitality, forbearance, tolerance and in the love for their fellow human beings. But the elite… it is when the elite want something and cannot get it that they remember that you are Igbo and he is Yoruba. Or he is Hausa and you are Igbo.
In what specific ways do the elite constitute a problem?
They constitute a problem because when they want something, they just must get it. If he wants to be president and he doesn’t get it, he becomes an enemy.
What was the greatest challenge you faced with them?
Unreliability.
That is all?
That is saying a lot.
Are you worried by the big problem of unemployment and criticisms that government has been insensitive to the people’s suffering under the reforms?
If you are going to be a reformer, then you must know that you are not in a popularity contest. Most reformers are not appreciated. Jesus Christ was a reformer, but he was crucified. Prophet Mohammed was a great reformer but he was driven away from his fatherland. Churchill was a great reformer but he was called a war-monger.
The important thing is, are you convinced about your reform and, if you are convinced, do you have a means, to get there? And if you know that means, then you must be consistent and have the courage to pursue your conviction.
During the banking consolidation process, every banker was against it. Soludo (CBN governor) came one day and said: “President, you have to save me” and I said: “It is the right thing; stick to your guns”. Today, everybody hails Soludo. I saw in the newspapers that Femi Otedola raised N192 billion from 10 banks.
Without consolidation, that would have been impossible. Tony Elumelu phoned me a few days ago and said he wanted $300 million and he got $739 million foreign investment. That is in a period of election when people are usually cautious about investing.
When I was doing the contributory pensions scheme, people shouted but today, the fund has over N100 billion. That is money you can put in long-term investment. That is the way other countries made it. You look at the figures in any area. Nigerians are better today than they were eight years ago.
I am not saying that we are there yet. We are not there. If you read the Bible, Jesus too said that the poor will always be with us. There will always be relative poverty.
There were two defining themes of the election campaign. One was the promise to fight corruption and the other to sustain the reforms. We recall that even in your inaugural address, you declared war on corruption.
That is why the first bill I sent to the National Assembly was against corruption. But I believe that some of those who used the fight against corruption as a campaign programme are just paying lip service. But there is no doubt that we need to sustain the fight against corruption.
Before 1999, people talked about corruption in hushed tones. But now, we not only talk about it, we are fighting it. We are not there yet but today, in Nigeria, corruption is no longer a way of life. People now say jokingly that the fear of EFCC is the beginning of wisdom. When I came into office in 1999, I realised that we needed to do something because the police had lost their biting teeth in that regard. The first thing I did was to set up the ICPC.
And are you satisfied with it?
Again, this issue of being satisfied is relative. If you say corruption is still very widespread in spite of ICPC and EFCC, then you should think of what the situation would have been without them. So, if we are not there yet, we are on the way there.
People around the President say that you are passionate about the energy sector. So why is it that the success…
(Cuts in) What really is success? If you have money and you say you want to build a turbine and you go to GE (General Electric) and you say you want to buy turbine, the minimum time they would give you is two years. It is not a bag of cement or shoes that you can buy off the shelf.
But I have also said before that what I saw outside before coming into government was different from what I found on ground. I did not know the depth of morass in NEPA. You will recall that the late Bola Ige said that he would do it in six months but he was there for one year and still did not know how to tackle the problem. That is how bad it was.
It took me three years to get to the bottom of the rottenness and cover-up in NEPA. What we have done is that, today, we have 11 power stations under construction, costing us billions of naira. There is no other country in the world that has pursued power generation like that. Even GE said so.
The other day, I commissioned Geregu Power Station, which will generate 440 megawatts, mw. That is about a third of the 1,500mw that was being generated when we came in. Then I went to Omotosho Power Station in Ondo which has 335mw. Before we go, I will commission Papa Lanto, which is another 335mw. A
fter commissioning Omotosho, I laid the foundation for 774mw. We have awarded the contract for the 2,600mw Mambila. It does not matter how quick I want it. Mambila will not be ready for another five years. It is not in the first term of this president–elect that that one will be switched on. Remember that for 20 years there was no investment in the energy sector.
What would you say was responsible for such a neglect?
It is just that people in government do not understand. That is why we are insisting that people who want to be in positions of leadership must understand. What did Abacha understand about investments in economy or development?
Many Nigerians have raised fears about the tribunals being able to dispense with all election petitions fast enough so that justice is not denied the petitioners. Does that issue bother you?
That is one of the problems with Nigerians — we do not even have trust in our own system. Somebody observed that our courts are one of the most independent in the world. I agree. If that is so, why can’t we leave them to do their job?
Looking back at the last eight years — the reforms, debt forgiveness, the increased foreign reserve and so on, which is your greatest source of joy?
Everything. The greatest source of joy for me is the hope for the future that Nigerians know that they have. Don’t forget that when I took this job many people, including a son of mine, said to me, “You are insane for taking this job”.
But they are changing their minds now. I saw Prof. Berth Nnaji (former minister of science and technology) the other day and asked him, “Are you going back abroad?” and he said “God forbid”. That is because there is hope.
People regard you as a man of history. How do you see yourself beyond May 29?
I have been down this road before. But now, I have two things going for me that were not there in 1979 — age and prison experience. Those are no small things. One thing that I did after 1979 was the establishment of the African Leadership Forum. I will pay a little more attention to that now.
That is in addition to your university programme?
Yes, studying Theology, that is, to understand the Bible more. Then I would work on the establishment of my presidential library. Basically, my time would be divided into four. A quarter would be spent on whatever job I have to do with the party, a quarter on the presidential library, a quarter on family and managing family business, and a quarter on responsibilities in international organisations.
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Posted by Robot| 16.05.2007 12:22