Sahara Reporters Exclusive

Interview with the Embattled and Defiant Nigeria’s Vice President Atiku Abubakar at his Potomac, Maryland USA Residence on December 29, 2006

My name is Sowore Omoyele, I’m doing this on behalf of Sahara Reporters, an internet based news website and also TheNEWS magazine in Lagos. We have quite a few questions regarding your altercation with your boss President Obasanjo. 

Sahara Reporters (SR): First question and we’ll like to be direct and precise, are you on political exile out of Nigeria?  

Vice President Atiku Abubakar (VP): No, no, no, obviously not! Certainly not!

Sahara Reporters (SR): So how long are you going to be here on vacation and when are you going back exactly?  

You see about 1½ months ago I put in my normal notification to the President of my intention to take my end of year vacation in the U.S. to be with my family and also to have some rest and he approved that. It was suppose to be between 2 to 3 weeks and [he] also approved the use of the Presidential aircraft. So, it’s certainly not a political exile and in any case I have enjoyed this kind of vacation for the last 7½ years. Every end of the year I come to stay with my family and sometimes we travel out together. So it’s not anything unusual.

(SR): When are you going back? 

(VP): I should go back around mid-January.

(SR): So people in Nigeria should expect you back? 

(VP): Oh yeah! Certainly yes because any case campaigns are suppose to start the same time so I should be on the campaign trail by then.

(SR): Are you aware that all [of] your staff have been redeployed, posted out as of yesterday, your residence sealed by security agents? 

(VP): No, no, no, my residence has not been sealed; my things are still there so I haven’t moved out of my residence.

(SR): What about your staff? 

(VP): Yes, staffs I understand have been redeployed; most of them, but you know there are skeletal services.

(SR): So you’re still the V.P of Nigeria as of midnight mid-January?

(VP): Of course, of course, of course.

(SR): Vice President Atiku there are people who would say, this is the prevailing opinion that this serves you right, that you been with Obasanjo together taking all these decisions, oppression of the people, all his policies that you’ve repudiated. How do you react to that?  

(VP): How would you say it serves me right, by being apart of an elected government for the last 7½ years or what do you mean by that?

(SR): The fact that Obasanjo was broke in 1999 when he came out of jail, you and some other people went and bailed him out, even Nasir El-Rufai said he had 20,000 Naira left and made him President. In 2003, you stepped down for him in the primaries so that he can be President again? You were called upon by the governors to contest and you said you want continuity. You have said it yourself that this government with its policy, their vendetta, their vindictiveness, all the things that have gone wrong with Nigeria which are also in your view, not acceptable. But you’ve been part of that? 

(VP): You seem to misunderstand the role of the Vice President in our own country’s Constitution. My role as a Vice President is merely advisory. The President has said it repeatedly, that he doesn’t have to take the advice of either his ministers or anybody else, that he does what he believes is right for the country and as a Vice President you don’t have executive powers, you don’t have a budget, you can’t implement government policy, the most you can do is to advise. So what happens, when you advise and your advice is not heeded or is not accepted and the President has made it quite clear he is not bound to accept anybody’s advice? He will govern the country the way he deems fit and the way he deems right.

(SR): But there are feelings out there that if you so disagreed with him, you give him advice and he doesn’t accept and things are so wrong as you see with the security in Nigeria today, power supply, the economic state, the situation with the judiciary, situations in which the President violates the law, why didn’t you resign?  

(VP): You forgot that this is a ticket and a ticket has a term. Of what use is my resignation going to make?

(SR): Even if it is just to show that you have a different conscience from that of the President? This rampaging President?  

(VP): I believe it would have been better for me to continue dialoguing, drawing the attention of the President from within than from the outside. But eventually perhaps my thoughts and analysis have not come to be right because this is a President who would not listen to anybody. It’s just most unfortunate.

(SR): So you just stuck in there, give him advice and hope that he would listen for 7 ½ years?  

(VP): Definitely, you see we did not start this way. The first term was really not that bad. We started on a good start. But along the way of course things went wrong and therefore we found ourselves where we are today?

(SR): But there is also the other dimension to it that you have repudiated everything this regime represents?  

(VP): I did not repudiate everything because I said there are certain things I believe should not have been done the way they have been done. I did not repudiate everything.

(SR): But you have openly fallen out with the President? 

(VP): Yes I have openly fallen out with the President, because I have openly fallen out does not mean I disagree with almost every government policy that has been implemented in the last 7 ½ years. I said it, I said it before.

(SR): Yeah, but right now there is no question that you guys have fallen apart. “Things have fallen apart and the center no longer holds”. What you used to be what you guys called “one presidency” is now a totally dysfunctional presidency? 

(VP): Yes. In fact let me tell you the terminology I later came to realize the terminology of “one presidency” was employed in our second term. In hindsight, I now came to realize that that was intended to remove me out of the presidency, that was all that terminology meant because ever since we came back in our second term he had been removing every responsibility he had given me before until I was left with no responsibility. So that was his terminology: “one President, one person doing everything”. “One person President, one person Vice President, one person everything”.

(SR): For how long have you been on ‘vacation’ from the Presidency, as the Vice President of Nigeria? 

(VP): I think for the greater part of the second term really.

(SR): You haven’t done anything at all? 

(VP): No I haven’t done anything other than attend Federal Executive Council meetings. That’s all.

(SR): In 2003 coming to the second term when you finally fell out the issue has been widely reported in the media, it is that he felt that you challenged him and that he had his ego bruised because some governors called on you to run against him in the primaries. You declined because you wanted as I said before a continuum of your joint ticket?  

(VP): I think it was more of a nationalistic instinct other then mere continuation. I have explained this over and over again. Some people have asked me whether I have not regretted what I did. I said no, I did not regret taking that decision. It was based on nationalistic instinct because you see before we came in 1999 there was this raging debate in Nigeria that the North dominated political power for three decades and I remember when we were in the Constitutional conference in 1994/95, you remember during Abacha’s time we deliberated as politicians agreed that after that Constitution or with that Constitution we should begin the policy of power rotation.

That we should all agree that power should move to the south whichever party you found yourself. So that came to pass in 1998 when we formed these parties. You recalled both 2 parties, both PDP and ANPP, had their presidential candidates from the south and fortunately PDP won. We came to the second term and here were these governors who foresaw or saw something that I did not foresee. They said, it was irrespective of whether Northern or Southern governors. They all came and converge and said, “look you’ve got to run, we don’t think we we’ll move on with this guy.” I said look, I mean whatever may be our difference lets go and sort it out with the Presidency because I believe that it is better that the Presidency is still left in the south. So it was out of Nationalistic instinct and so I took the governors along with me and we went to meet the President and said “look these governors have grievances with you and the way you have been running things, so lets discuss this, and he said we should all be very sincere, very open. And these governors opened up only for them of course later to be hunted for speaking to him. So it was actually based on nationalistic instinct rather then any personal gain.

(SR): Talking out 2003 again, it has been adjudged that the 2003 elections was the most rigged in Africa. You were part of that by virtue of the fact that you  

(VP): Who adjudged that? Who adjudged that?

(SR): International observers, Nigerians, you have been in Nigeria; you’ve seen what has happened. People who didn’t win elections were rigged into office, even the Senate President we hear didn’t even win the elections this is something everybody knew. Do you have any regrets about the 2003 elections?  

(VP): Which Senate President?

(SR): Adolphus Wabara, when he was there! 

(VP): Honestly I don’t think I would agree with you on this analysis on this conclusion but these were elections results which were contested at the court of appeals contested at the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court returned a verdict that the elections were okay!

You must substantiate that these elections were not free and fair. So, where do you come with all of this, your sweeping statements, you know it was adjudged to be the most aggrieved elections in Africa, I mean where did you get that as a Nigerian?

(SR): As a Nigerian I listen and read reports from the field, electoral monitors, even before the Supreme Court came and said the elections weren’t that rigged. But don’t forget that even the Supreme Court said that in certain places like in Ogun State more people voted than registered and so many other cases like that, like in Anambra, even in other states where decisions were taken regarding rigging?  

(VP): You remember there were differences, a difference of about 10 million votes. Even if you remove the votes in Ogun, you remove the votes in Anambra you are still going to end up with a huge difference lead by the PDP.

(SR): What about the legitimacy of an election if you have 10 million votes that came in illegally? 

(VP): No, no, no, I said look, don’t misunderstand me. I said PDP was leading in the Presidential elections with about 10 million votes. So even if you take away the votes of Ogun, you take the votes away from Anambra and still other states, you are still going to end up with a huge gap between the PDP and the ANPP.

(SR): It was reported yesterday though one of our sources in Lagos that the AC party leadership came here to prevail on you to abandon your presidency in favor of Buhari, how correct is that?  

(VP): Absolutely untrue! We never discuss anything like that. In fact if anything, in fact they came here to encourage me to finish up my vacation and come back to continue the leadership of the party and my candidacy. It was nothing like that, that was discussed. Absolutely nothing like that!

(SR): Taking from the experiences of M.K.O Abiola are you confident the members of AC can see you thru the tribulations that are going to come. Let’s say of instance when you arrive in Nigeria and you are arrested and detained and tried for the charges you said were trumped up against you. Are you confident that the party would not abandon you? 

(VP): Abandon me how?

(SR): Because there are a lot of elements in this party who have done that before, abandon Abiola for example. They have the Tom Ikimis’ of this world in AC, all kinds of strange bedfellows, military collaborators? 

(VP): No, I have every confidence in the leadership of the party, they will not abandon me.

(SR): The other question in this is that you have been favored by the judiciary. The judiciary has extremely been on your side in terms of support, you have been winning all of these cases… 

(VP): No the judiciary has been on the side of the rule of law.

(SR): But you have been progressing well within the judiciary. You have even said it openly that you believe in the judiciary. Why can’t you say that I, Alhaji Abubakar Atiku waive my immunity I want to face Obasanjo and all the charges, I resign as Vice President and you face the charges, since you have so much faith in the judiciary? People think you are hiding behind immunity to cover up? 

(VP): What have I been hiding behind immunity to cover up what? What have I been able to cover up all of these years?

(SR): But that is the point… 

(VP): Haven’t I said that! Haven’t I said that! Haven’t I appeared before the National Assembly and say look I’m prepared to waive my immunity and bring whatever you have against me I have said it!

(SR): There is a question you didn’t answer yet? How much did you guy raise for Obasanjo in 1999? Who and who donated money to bring him out of his financial quagmire and now he is one of the richest people in Nigeria ?  

(VP): (Laughs!) I don’t have to let you know what we raised and who raised what?

(SR): Isn’t it time that we start letting people know what transpired? 

(VP): When the time comes I will let you know.

(SR): We’ve been waiting for years. I’ve waited for 35 years, my entire lifetime?  

(VP): No you didn’t wait for 35 years, after all the incident only happened in 1998.

(SR): What about the incidences that have been happening before now. Similar incidences where we just sweep everything under the carpet?  

(VP): No, I mean this is a much more open society perhaps than we use to have, like in military regimes and so on and military dictatorships. I believe everybody after leaving government we’ll begin to write his memoirs and so by the time we write you will know.

(SR): People of my generation are just sick and fed up with your generation. We feel like you’ve mismanaged and squandered our future. Isn’t it time that people in that class turn themselves in, instead of having this ambition to continue rule forever as things have not improved. What is driving the ambition of your generation to stick to power? 

(VP): Which my generation is sticking to power? When have I even started? This is my 1st time in being in government in all my life. I’m 60.

(SR): You’ve been governor. Even if for one second, a governor elect?  

(VP): No wait a minute, be realistic. What stops you from coming to Nigeria to participate in these things?

(SR): …I just came from Nigeria … 

(VP): Eh, go there, the whole place is open, go and participate in the elections and go and win elections and change things.

(SR): Did you say the place is open? 

(VP): Yes!

(SR): How come it’s closed against you? 

(VP): No, it is not closed against me.

(SR): You have been hounded. Even with all your wealth, your influence, you have been hounded…  

(VP): There are people as young as yourself who are in the national assembly, who are in the state assembly, who are in government.

(SR): Those ones have godfathers…

(VP): No! I don’t believe in godfathers.  No, no, no, no! I disagree with you Sowore. There are many people I know who don’t have godfathers. Many of them!

(SR): Tell me one governor in Nigeria who doesn’t have a godfather, who is still in power today? 

(VP): Many of them!

(SR): One, name one? 

(VP): There are many of them who came to power without a godfather.

(SR): …And who are staying in power without a godfather, 

(SR): I mean staying in power? 

(VP): I don’t understand what you mean about this godfather business, honestly.

(SR): You confronted it in Anambra State for example. You were the one who saved Ngige’s skin, from Andy Uba and his brother, Chris? 

(VP): Yes I did that because I believe in Constitutionalism and the rule of law.

(SR): That’s what we’re saying, what we’re saying is that there is no freedom, and no fairness in the electoral process and until that happens good people cannot participate?  

(VP): Who will bring about this openness and fairness, if people don’t participate, if good people like you don’t participate? Who will bring about this fairness?

(SR): I’m participating in a different level. I don’t have to be a political office seeker to participate in reforming Nigeria … 

(VP): Then you are not talking about your generation is fed up, your generation is fed up!

(SR): But that is the truth… 

(VP): The point is that most of the people who are managing Nigerian affairs today from local government to state government to national assembly; most of them are in your age bracket.

(SR): What about the marionette (Remote) control, the fact that each of those persons who are in my age bracket belongs to a secret cult, has a godfather?  

(VP): I don’t know, I don’t know about that. Don’t bring secret cults into this.

(SR): But that is the truth. I am talking about what I know…  

(VP): I don’t know, I’ve never been a member of a secret cult and don’t know anything about a secret cult.

(SR): It doesn’t have to be a secret cult, as in drinking blood; it might be a secret cult of a powerful political movement that is not open to ordinary people except that you know somebody…  

(VP): No, I disagree with you.

(SR): You are saying absolutely that Nigeria is an open society?  

(VP): I did not have a godfather. I just came into politics just as an individual.

(SR): What about people saying that Obasanjo is your godfather, now you’ve fallen out with him, you are in trouble? 

(VP): No, no, no, no Obasanjo has, never, ever been my godfather.

(SR): But he’s ‘God’ in Nigeria today, don’t you think so? 

(VP): Well, I think I’ve only recalled one statement he made at the Federal Executive Council (FEC) where he said in Nigeria after God, he comes next.

(SR): Wow, he said that, and what did you do? 

(VP): We just eh, laughed it off, eh, it was a joke.

(SR): So it one of those things you laughed off that now came back to haunt you? 

(VP): Haunting me like how?

(SR): Because if you have challenged him, Sir, don’t you think, if you said, look you are not God.., 

(VP): No, he knows that I have always said, always said look he is not God. This is my position. He knows my position. I have always known that he is not God, and he cannot be God, so what is the big deal.

(SR): Speaking about corruption, you have spoken extensively about it in recent times, the corruption in the Presidency. How Obasanjo corners everything, mismanage the PTDF and put it on you as the person who was responsible. How long have you known about these issues, because some of the evidence you produced were from 2002. So you’ve always known this and sat around with this and not report this to the ICPC or EFCC or at least to the Nigerian media until now.

Why have you been staying quiet on his corruption and he turned you into a corrupt person, he gave you a tag of the most corrupt Nigerian and you let him walk around until almost too late? 

(VP): It is never late.

(SR): But why did you’ve wait until this late before reacting?  

(VP): Of course, I had to react because there was reason for me to react.

(SR): …But there are people who felt that if things are going smoothly between the two of you we would never have heard about the sleaze going on in the Presidency.  

(VP): Well… Why not, why not? You will always come to know it.

(SR): How would we have known? 

(VP): It’s there, it’s there, and it’s on record. What are you going to do about that record?

(SR): For example, the documents you got from the PTDF for example. They are even saying that they were out rightly stolen. People like me can’t have access to that kind of documentation. If not for you we would never have seen those documents?

(VP): Well as far as I know, these documents are available and that you can have access to them. There is no way those documents can be destroyed because they are in the hands of so many people in Nigeria.

(SR): Do you have copies of some of these documents for us? 

(VP): No, those are my copies. The ones I will release to the media, I will release to the media in Nigeria.

(SR): You haven’t released the copies to the media in the Diaspora, that’s what we represent… 

(VP): No, you can pickup from Nigeria…

(SR): I just came back from Nigeria and I spoke to your people, they couldn’t get around giving me copies electronically. You need to just let me have your copies.  

(VP): No, I believe you can pick up from Nigeria. I believe we have all the major media houses covered, we have given them copies.

(SR): How corrupt is Obasanjo by your own assessment?  

(VP): Honestly, I wouldn’t know.

(SR): You wouldn’t know in the sense that it’s too big to know…  

(VP): No, because I’m only a Vice President. I’m only an advisor.

(SR): You’re the number second citizen of Nigeria?  

(VP): It all depends on how much he wants his number 2-citizen to know.

(SR): How much did he let you know? 

Eh, I mean fairly ok, as much as he wanted me to know.

(SR): So he didn’t hide his corruption? 

(VP): I don’t want to get involved into this issue of corruption with the President. If you have anything against the President, please make it known.

(SR): Sir, you have been the one who’ve provided the best yet evidence of his corruption. What are you hiding at this point? 

(VP): I am not hiding anything. Time will come when these things will be out.

(SR): …But when you look at the range between 1999 when he had 20,000 Naira in his account. I knew that they were selling his properties at Otta. Now how much do you think he’s worth, because you’ve said it, that this guy has made more money than me since 1999? You’ve said it publicly. So there is something you know.  

(VP): Well if you believe I know something you wait till I release it.

(SR): I mean that’s why I came here. I drove 4 hours to see you. 

(VP): I don’t have to release it now, not at your own time but at my own time.

(SR): What if it gets too late?  

(VP): It’s never going to get too late.

(SR):  Another question: between the two of you, Vice President Atiku and President Obasanjo. You both seem to have been businessmen in power. You have a university, he owns a university, in fact it was said that you presided over the licensing of his university - Bells University - and he presided over the licensing of your university, ABTI-American University. He has a huge farm, you have shipping. What time do you have left to govern Nigeria if you spend so much time running after your personal businesses?  

(VP): I was a businessman before I came into government.

(SR): Doesn’t it run counter to the code of conduct for public officials to chase after personal businesses while in public office? 

(VP): No, the fact that you are in government doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t own a business. All that our laws require you is to declare those business and they were declared.

(SR): Did you declare your businesses? 

(VP): Oh yes, oh yes, you can go and obtain my assets declaration form and you would see all the business I have declared.

(SR): Are you willing to declare your assets publicly, not at the Code of Conduct Bureau where we can never get them? 

(VP): No, you can always get them.

(SR): We have tried to get them… 

(VP): No there is a way to get them and if you want me to make my own available to you there is no big deal about it. 

(SR): I would be happy if you do that… 

(VP): Okay.

(SR): Okay, so you are promising that you are going to declare your assets publicly?  

(VP): Yes, up to date!

(SR): …Then if you look at your background, ex-custom official, businessman, astute politician, your children are doing very well, look at this house for example, super house outside of Nigeria, there are people who generally just quarrel with this endless acquisition of assets/properties by Nigerian leaders. Look, you can’t have vacation in Nigeria; you have to do your vacation in the United States. You don’t see United States President going to do vacation in Nigeria. Isn’t it time that we start closing down these offshore business and properties acquisition and focus on nation building at home maybe that would make our home nation a better place for the citizens?  

(VP): No, you should also not interfere with the rights of individuals to own property and to lead their lives the way they want to lead [them]. The fact that you are serving in public office for instance on many occasions I have met with world leaders vacationing outside their countries, many, many occasions. The fact that you go to rest elsewhere should not be taken as out that it is out of loc with patriotism. I disagree with you on that.

(VP’s Aide): He bought this house because his former house was too small for his visitors; he sold the old house and bought this for his wife.

(SR): He only sold his former house for $700,000 this house is worth almost $2 million, besides is it forbidden that public officials operate foreign accounts? 

(VP): I don’t operate a foreign account.

(SR): How did you buy the house then? 

(VP): I bought it with monies in my company’s account.

(SR): I’m talking morally now. You don’t see anything wrong with it? 

No, I don’t see anything wrong; I don’t see any reason why you should place an embargo on leaders on where they spend their vacation or where they decide to spend their money. I don’t think it is right, as long as that money is legitimately earned.

(SR): So you can look us in the eye as Nigerians and say I’ve never been involved or engaged in corruption before? 

(VP): If you have any evidence you can supply it to the members of the public. Who ever has it!

(SR): I’m not the one who has the evidence; Obasanjo for example keeps saying  you are corrupt? 

(VP): I’ve challenge EFCC, I’ve challenged EFCC, and I have challenged all the investigative bodies. Whatever they have against me they are free to bring it out. And to see how I have used public funds to acquire what I have and so on and so forth. Is it not when you have access to public funds that [like I’ve been accused] you can be stealing them?

(SR): But what about the influence peddling? 

(VP): What kind of influence? When no one reports to you, no governor reports to you, nobody comes to your house, nobody comes to your office? What influence do you have?

(SR): For example you sat over the privatization of major corporations in the country. You sat over PTDF until recently. Those are powerful positions? 

(VP): Wait a minute; PTDF only approved three transactions in the few years that I exercised oversight functions. Only three transactions and those three transactions were not even expenditures they were all investments. Two of them were investments only one of them was an approval for an officer to attend a seminar. The only three decisions that I took.

(SR): But within that period also there were people who were stealing money out of the PTDF. Did you overlook that or you just didn’t think it was your duty? 

(VP): No, no which were they?

(SR): For example also they accused you of fixing the interest rate for PTDF accounts? 

(VP): No, no I did not fix the interest rates. That was never my responsibility as a Vice President to even start talking about interest rates.

(SR): What about the banks in which they say you put the monies, banks in which you have interest, banks owned by your friends?  

(VP): This have an answered everything and I have provided documentation to this.

(SR): So you just think you’re being hounded?  

(VP): Absolutely!

(SR): There is this question during Bola Ige’s death. Perhaps we should bring it to public attention, it was that the key suspect – Fryo - told the lawyer Festus Keyamo, who I’m sure you know, that when there were going to kill Bola Ige that Omisore, the Senator, told him that “the Vice President will protect you if you kill Bola Ige”.  

(VP’s Aide interrupts): - You can’t ask such questions…

(SR to VP’s Aide): This is something that has to be cleared.

(SR): Did you know Omisore before, where you guys close? 

I have only an acquaintance with Omisore. Yes I have known him; I’ve met him a couple of times. Yes.

(SR): Where you close to Bola Ige?  

(VP): Certainly not!

(SR): I want to go back to the issue of private universities that you (…and Obasanjo) both own, because you didn’t answer that question as sufficiently…

(VP’s Aide interrupts again): Sorry to interrupt, I apologize, again but you are asking a question that has to do with a criminal offense involving another party and I don’t think he is competent on the issue and hearsay between two people.

(SR to VP’s Aide): It’s either we asked the questions or we don’t ask them, the more we ask them the better the clarification is out there. He should know that what has been taking his case far better is because he speaks out more. Maybe if he had been speaking out for the past seven years we wouldn’t be where we are today. But he’s been taciturn, he doesn’t like to speak, he doesn’t like to spill the beans and here we are. Look at what we are dealing with, Nigeria is in a Constitutional crisis based upon the madness of one man and his vice that ought to have cried out, but didn’t do that for a long time. So we are getting to a point where we’ve got to ask hard questions!

(VP’s Aide): I understand that but it’s just that these things are a criminal case.

(SR to VP’s Aide): Corruption is criminal too.

(VP’s Aide): You can read what he wrote on the PTDF. All the things he said have been elucidated too in the last one year, from November 2005 till now, not in 2002.

(SR to VP’s Aide): I read it extensively and even a Federal Minister is still reacting today to some of the past money that was used.  So speaking out is not a bad thing at all. We are there already where clarifications ought to be made 

(SR): …So I want to go back to the University issue, how many Nigerians can actually afford to attend ABTI-American? Is it right to give yourself licenses to own universities while the public universities are getting destroyed? 

(VP): No, no, I disagree with you; the public universities have actually been rehabilitated and approved upon since we came in, better then when we met them. So I disagree with you. And the issue of affordability is also not correct. Thousands of Nigerians are sending their children to universities in the United States here and I know what they pay. Up to now do you don’t pay up to U.S. $10,000 to attend the university, so I believe it is affordability for those who can afford to bring their children here and pay 30, 40 thousand dollars school fees.

(SR): On human rights, you said that it will not be a problem under your regime if you win the next presidential elections. But there has been a case where you said it was treason for the Nigerian Labor Congress (NLC) to go on strike? 

(VP): No, no, no, illegal doesn’t mean treason. I know there were some illegal strikes because there were laws governing strikes in the country, so if you don’t go by that process it can be termed as an “illegal strike”.

(SR): Isn’t that executive interference with worker’s rights? 

(VP): No, you mean workers are not supposed to go by the rule of law?

(SR): But they also should be able to fight for their welfare by employing legitimate non-violent means of protest. 

(VP): Yeah! I agree, I agree. Nobody perhaps demonstrated as a young person as I did. I went to jail for demonstrating for being in the streets all the time. It is something I believe in. But when you do it you must also do it within the rule of law.

(SR): I know you said that you don’t have any regrets. But if you look at some of the decisions that have been taken by this government in terms of blowing up Odi, Zaki Biam, there was a time even when your body guards beat up a journalist? 

(VP): Please I was not party to all this, don’t ask me how decisions to blow up Zaki Biam, or Odi was taken.

(SR): You were not party to it?  If you’re asked to say what are the three major things wrong with Nigeria today, what would you say they are? 

(VP): Pause, pause, three major things?

(SR): Yeah? 

(VP): I think I would like to see an end to this pretension with Nigerian leaders; people should be honest with Nigerians particular with the Nigerians.

Secondly I would like to see a more democratically open Nigeria. In other words, I mean openness of the space, democratically.

(SR): But you just told me that it was an open society; everyone was free to do whatever it is they like?  

(VP): No! Open up to a level. When I say better open I mean better then it is now?  Yeah, better then it is now. And then of course the unity of Nigerians.

(SR): These things are vague. How do people get united if they are unemployed, they get beaten by police, the infrastructure is in decay, pubic officials are stealing their wealth?  

(VP): That is a different question all together than the question you asked me.

(SR): Maybe I should ask you which problems are going to be priority in the regime if you were to be President.  

(VP): Well I have said them in my policy document. Of course it includes infrastructure, you know it includes job creation, poverty for young Nigerians who are roaming the streets all over or the villages.

(SR): How will that create jobs? 

(VP): Of course if you read the document you will find how we intend to create jobs.

(SR): Because for example the Obasanjo regime created jobs according to them through people selling GSM (Mobile Phone Recharge Cards) recharge cards on the street. Those ones are not employment. Are you taking it to the next level? What is it? 

(VP): Certainly yes, like there was a time we had this party nation between the Nigerian economists and government. There was actually one proposal that was agreed creating like ½ a million entrepreneur every year. And each entrepreneur was to engage at least five people. I believe it’s one way of creating perhaps millions of jobs and actually I did not like the idea of how the government just waived it aside and went on to do other things. I would like to bring back those kinds of ideas by working closely with the private sector to see how jobs, sustainable jobs can be created for the Nigerian youth.

(SR): Again, going back to the private sector, privatization: a lot of national assets have been sold since 1999 and we are getting to find out now that they’ve been sold to cronies of people in power. In fact so many of the accusations against you are that so many of those companies like AP were sold to your cronies and later, we found that it’s Obasanjo who’s selling national assets to his cronies now.

How do we say that is privatization when we just give away national assets to people who are closest to those in power? 

(VP): Before you come to this conclusion, I don’t want you to be making very sweeping statements.

First of all you must prove that those transactions did not go through due process, you must prove that perhaps the value at which they were sold, that they were undervalued and so and so forth. So by just making these kinds of sweeping statements I don’t think I will accept that.

(SR): Sir, for example, you take NITEL. Somebody bid for NITEL for 1.2 billion dollars, when it was sold it was sold for 750 million dollars. That is below even the bidding price of [what] we all know before. So how is that sweeping statements when we draw attention to such things? 

(VP): No! You must also take into consideration when the fellow bid for $1.2 billion, did he pay? He couldn’t pay.

(SR): …Not being able to pay doesn’t mean that wasn’t the value though.  

(VP): Wait, wait a moment, and then the subsequent years the same process was employed to privatize NITEL and mark you in those years, subsequent years, other telecommunications were coming up, like the MTN, like GLOBACOM and so on and so forth and their coming up were devaluing NITEL over the years. And therefore it is not surprising at the end of the day, the international consultants agree to come and value NITEL, said look you are not likely to get the value you got four years ago because of the intervening period and because of the developments within the telecommunications sector. Then you have to take all things into consideration before you make all those sweeping statements.

(SR): You look at GLOBACOM. GLOBACOM is not anywhere near NITEL in value. NITEL has graduated properties not only in Nigeria, but abroad, cables, they have a lot of assets, no body is going to sell GLOBACOM today for $750 million, don’t you agree with me? 

(VP): No, I am not one to make very definitive comments on that because I must be avail of facts and figures.

(SR): You’re a businessman you should have an idea of these things. 

(VP): No, unfortunately my business in not in the telecommunications sector.

(SR): Where are your businesses? 

(VP): Don’t worry when I give you my forms, you will see where businesses is.

(SR): If today there was an intervention between you and Obasanjo for reconciliation, would you reconcile with him? 

(VP): Why not, it is only a political disagreement between me and the President.

(SR): So, it’s not personal?  

(VP): No, I’ve never taken it personal. It’s a political disagreement.

(SR): But, he has taken it personal…  

(VP): Eh, that is his business. 

(SR): Are you waiting for him to stab you physically before you know that this is personal?

(VP): Eh, he will never get to stab me physically.

(SR): But there is a time that we feel that he gets angry and is beating up people. 

(VP): (Laughs) Have you ever seen him beat up somebody?

(SR): the President of Ghana beat up his Vice President, that’s (VP): not new in Africa...

(VP): Well, I will not come near him to be beaten. 

(SR): I hope not! 

(VP): No!

(SR): Have you forgiven Gbenga Obasanjo for his interview last January?  

(VP): No, that was a childish interview now.

(SR): …it seems that what he said in the interview unmasked and unveiled what eventually became real occurrences between you and his father. It’s as if it was a prediction, you know he tagged you corrupt and his father followed up and then you saw what happened? 

But before you answer that what exactly happened between your boy and yourself, EL-Rufai? Where did you guys fall apart?  

(VP): I don’t want to talk about El-Rufai please!

(SR): Why not? 

(VP): He’s just an appointee of government that’s all.  But he was your deputy in the privatization at the BPE.

(SR): You worked together? 

(VP): Yes, it’s true, I gave El-Rufai a job as a BPE Director General, its true I recommended him into the government to become a Minister. That’s the end of it, that’s all.

(SR): He has turned around and has been one of your greatest persecutors in this thing?  

(VP): I wish him good luck.

(SR): You wish him good luck?  …it’s been said that you have recruited so many members of the so called economic management team. How many of them did you recruit, did you bring here? I know many of them live around here, with you here.  

(VP): Quite a number of them actually. Quite a number of them.

(SR): Can you be more specific, sir? 

(VP): No, I don’t want to be specific, it would not be fair. Both to the President, and to them, because they are still serving the government.

(SR): So you think if you mentioned who they were, they would

fire them? 

(VP): No, I don’t think it would be fair for me to start mentioning names. But I know I brought most of them actually.

(SR): Sir, as it were, the despoliation of the Niger it is really one of the biggest problems of Nigeria today and who know for a fact that quite a number of influential people in Nigeria are actually participating in that despoliation. You have been linked to some oil companies?  

(VP): No, no, I’m not linked to any oil companies. I’m not in the oil business.

(SR): People have mentioned Emeka Offor for example… 

(VP): We have never been partners in any business whatsoever.

(SR): So then how do you intend to hold accountable, people like Babangida for sure we know has numerous dealings with oil companies in the Niger Delta. 

(VP): Honestly I don’t know. You see, you have to be the Minister of Petroleum or the President to know anything about the oil licenses and I have never been anything of those things. I have never been the President and I’ve never been the minister of Petroleum to know those things. Honestly I am totally blank about the petroleum sector.  But I have said that I will appoint a minister to attend to the Niger Delta region specifically.

(SR): Totally blank? You mean that don’t have business in the petroleum sector?

(VP): You mean by personal businesses?

Yes? 

(VP): My personal businesses are basically logistics and they are not only in Nigeria. They are all over Africa. They are in Angola, they are in Gabon, and they are in Cote d’ Ivoire. So really, I can’t tell you much about the oil business in Nigeria.

(SR): I really was not trying to get into the logistics of the oil business. What is my point, my question was how you would address that, since we know that there are vested interests, people like Mohammed Babangida has an oil bloc, he was not Vice President, and he was not President, and he was not Petroleum Minister and look at Danjuma?  

(VP): We would not have known if there were no disagreements between him (Danjuma) and the government, because since there was a disagreement between him and the government and they went to court, that was how we knew as members of the public know aside. From that we know that he sold 40% of his shares in his oil company for instance and he made billions of dollars from that sale of his minority shares. So that was another way that we found out that he had oil blocs.

(SR): What I’m trying to say is that how do you intend, knowing this fact now, If you become President are you ever going to make it open, the names of those who owns oil blocs in Nigeria? 

(VP): Very, very, very open. I cannot understand why these things cannot be open. I cannot understand why it cannot come to the Federal Executive Council.

(SR): You’re saying it doesn’t? 

(VP): No, we have never treated anything from the use of petroleum in the Federal Executive Council. 

(SR): That’s very interesting. Do you not own an oil bloc? 

(VP): No, no, no please, I don’t even know what an oil bloc looks like. The only thing that I know is that a few months back the President brought…“Ghana-must-go” to each member of the Federal Executive Council

(SR): Of money? 

(VP): No, not of money, of documents, this is where all the contracts and approvals in the last 7 years he said the council should ratify.

(SR): Wow! 

(VP): And they are still there…

(SR): Did you ratify it? 

(VP): What else are you going to do? The President said he had approved all, and all of the council members are his appointees.

(SR): Sir, at that point couldn’t you just have blown his cover? 

(VP): Wait a moment.

(SR): Bring your own “Ghana-must-go” home and give them to me so that we can just expose all of this.  

(VP): It’s still there, it’s still there.

(SR): Are you going to be able to get copies to us?  

(VP): When you come to Nigeria I’ll give you all the documents in Ghana-must- go bag.

(SR): How much are they worth? 

(VP): You know, I don’t know.

(SR): So you never looked in the bag? What if there was money in it? 

(VP): (Laughs). There is no way this President would ever put money in it, never! So as far as I’m concerned I see no reason why you should not be like any other business going to the federal executive council. In fact, the more reason why it should be open is because that is where the nation earns its money.

(SR): So you have no knowledge as Vice President of Nigeria, how much oil is pumped out of Nigeria every day? 

(VP): Other than what you see, they release other then what of course the NNPC gives to the national assembly, what is made public is what I see.

(SR): Have you ever asked? 

(VP): No.

(SR): Why not? 

(VP): Because even if you asked they will not give, even to the national assembly who have statutory rights!

----------------------------

(SR): Extras… 

…………………………………………..

(SR): Vice President Atiku, at least on the lighter side, Obasanjo and yourself share something in common… 

(VP): What is it?

(SR): You both love women.   Who loves women most?